I grew up in the David Bowie era. “Space Oddity,” (Major Tom) came out when I was 8 years old. His music was always around when I was young. Then, right after I returned from my LDS mission, he released “Let’s Dance,” and believe me, we did.
Since then, I haven’t really kept up with his music, but I rarely change the channel when one of his songs comes on. (Especially Young Americans, Golden Years and Heroes) So, when I heard he passed away on January 10, I felt a nostalgic loss.
When an artist like Bowie dies, there is always an understandable outpouring of affection and appreciation. There will be a brief resurgence of his music, (#1 on iTunes today) and we will find old favorites on Spotify, to bring back memories. We will sing his praises – much as we do our favorite living artists – whether they be musicians, actors, film directors, writers, etc.
But something struck me as I chatted with people about David Bowie’s passing. Although I have given it some thought, I haven’t yet nailed it down completely in my mind. What I have so far is this:
While extolling his genius, some seem to forget that David Bowie was also a bit of a freak show. He dabbled in and promoted things such as androgyny, cross-dressing, bisexuality, homosexuality, drugs, orgies etc.. He dabbled in the very things that have since become mainstream. He was a vanguard to the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner era – 40 years earlier. Those same culture wars are still being fought, with the Church in a very visible role. Even on David Bowie’s final album that was released just this week, a full 25% of the songs are tagged as “Explicit.”
Oh yeah…that.
He made a mark on our culture with his music and artistry – and it wasn’t all good. We tend to pick the good stuff out, and turn a blind eye to the rest. For the sake of discussion, I would like to refer to this as “The Bowie Effect.”
-And please don’t feel like I am picking on David Bowie. It could just as easily be the “Madonna Effect” in the 80’s, the “Britney Effect” of the 90’s, the “Eminem Effect” of the 00’s, or even the “Lady Gaga Effect” of today.
Here is the point: We tend to turn a blind eye to artistry or the artist, if we like the resulting “art,” which is usually found by cherry-picking from the catalogue. Sometimes we find ourselves willing to overlook the cultural degradation that an artist inflicts, as long as we find something we enjoy whether it be music/movies/books. For example:
Me? Guilty as charged. For example, back in the 80’s, Madonna burst onto the scene in her underwear with very catchy tunes and videos – some of them were even banned at the time. (Amazing how far we have come/sunk.) She made a mark on society that was noticeable at the time, and all of those old-fashioned adults were rightly nervous.
Here’s the problem. I love her album “Ray of Light.” I think it is brilliant. I am a fan of that particular version of Madonna. I am fully aware that she is now a scary old woman, and that she does not uplift society. I know that she has given our culture a hard shove down it’s ever-slippery slope.
But I still like some of her music…and I know that when she dies, she will be heralded as a cultural and artistic genius, – much as we are seeing with David Bowie today.
Is that OK? I don’t know.
I do know that we are expected to live up to high standards in what we allow into our heads and our homes. In fact, one of the basic tenants of our faith reads like this:
“If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” (13th Article of Faith)
Or more currently, this is what the expectation is for our youth:
“Do not attend, view, or participate in anything that is vulgar, immoral, violent, or pornographic in any way. Do not participate in anything that presents immorality or violence as acceptable. Have the courage to walk out of a movie, change your music, or turn off a computer, television, or mobile device if what you see or hear drives away the Spirit.” (link)
Sure, it follows that we should not support “art” that degrades. We should be avoiding it. Buying filth, or participating in filth makes me an accomplice, and helps popularize it.
But what about the “Artist?”
Does buying music from an artist that is gnawing away at our cultural values make me an accomplice? Does going to a film starring someone who degrades our society make me an unwitting financial benefactor?
For example:
• I really, really like the Dave Matthews Band, but good old Dave is an outspoken proponent of legalized marijuana.
• I like watching certain actors who happen to not believe in marriage, or are actively pro-gay marriage on the big screen. (There are tons.)
• I still find Bill Cosby comedy routines to be hilarious.
• I might go see Batman vs. Superman, even though I have read Ben Affleck is an adulterer.
Or on the ridiculous end of the spectrum: Back in days of the Prop 8 gay marriage battle, the beloved actor Tom Hanks called out Mormons as being “un-American.” (link) (He eventually apologized.)
At the same time, he was producing an HBO series about polygamy that made light of a lot of things LDS members hold sacred. (He never apologized.)
I have had conversations with people who absolutely refuse to see any movie that stars Tom Hanks because of what he has said about Mormons. Seriously? (Personally, I like Tom Hanks movies. Almost all of them. Most recently, Bridge of Spies. Great movie.)
Here’s the problem:
If I can’t go to a movie that stars an actor who has different moral values than I do, then I will never be able to go to another movie. If I have to agree with the lifestyle of every recording artist I listen to, then I will have to delete 90% of my playlists. (Sure, there are a few exceptions. Very few.)
…I have no answer for you. And the more I think about it, the more confusing it gets.
Do you want confusing? Try this: When I stream, buy or rent an edited version of a R-rated movie, I am sending my dollars, and the message to the makers of that specific R-rated movie that they need to make more – because I like this stuff.
Some singers produce album after album of explicit trash, then suddenly pop out with something non-offensive that breaks into the mainstream. Do I buy shun it because of the artist’s history, or do I buy it to show the artist that THIS I like?
Some artists are almost militant in their support of political or social causes that hasten the downfall of our society. But they make very cool movies. Should I do my part in keeping them in the public eye by buying tickets to see them?
If I watch TV shows like…(insert title here)… then I am telling the networks and their sponsors to make more shows like this, because I’m here – ready to consume them.
So we go back to The Bowie Effect. Can I enjoy the good stuff he created, without supporting or endorsing the bad, or the lifestyle that was behind it?
Can I separate the “art” from the “artist?” (I recognize the reverse echoes of “Love the sinner, hate the sin,” in this discussion.)
It is time for someone to chime in, “Wait! You sound soooo JUDGMENTAL!” How can you be so accusatory of these artists? They are doing the best they can with the light they have been given – you can’t judge them!”
To which I would respond, “Man, what a stupid argument. OF COURSE I can judge them – AND what they produce. It is my JOB to judge. I am supposed to seek after the things that are virtuous and lovely, and shun the things that are violent and vulgar. How in the world am I supposed to do that if I don’t use judgement? Flip a coin?
“I can easily judge that Leonardo DiCaprio in Wolf of Wall Street, with its 140 F-bombs does not meet LDS standards. I’m not condemning him to Outer Darkness, and I don’t have that power, I am merely calling out the distinction between light and dark.”
It comes down to not making all-embracing statements. I have heard so many people talk about what a great man and artist genius David Bowie was. My eulogy for him? I really enjoyed some of his music. He was cutting edge , and made an impact of music- but I sure hate what he stood for in his early artistry and personal life. (I am not trying to speak ill of the sea, but I’m not granting him sainthood either.)
How about Tom Hanks: I think he is a National Treasure. I love his movies. But as a person, I sure wish he had more respect for other’s beliefs that he doesn’t understand, or agree with.
I had better stop – I am getting sore from straddling this fence…
—
Just returned form a wild four-way conversation with two of my sons and my EC about this topic. Interesting conversation.
We all agreed that it would be OK to buy music or see a movie from someone who does not live our standards – nor should we expect them to live our standards.
We also agreed that we should not be going to those type of movies or listening to degrading music anyway.
This is a no-brainer:
Also a no brainer:
Why no-brainers? Because there has never been anything created that wears these labels that does not contain one or all from the aforementioned list: “Vulgar, immoral, violent, or pornographic.”
But some ideas got fuzzier: Should we give our money to an artist who dabbles in occasional filth, even if we like some of their stuff? (For example, if Quentin Tarantino directed a really cute G-rated movie, would you support in light of everything else he has done?)
There was disagreement as to our level of obligation to call out what we see as inappropriate and encourage others to stay away. Is that a personal decision, or is it a moral battle in a very public war?
One consensus was that it is up to us as adults and parents to discern which things we allow in our heads and our homes. The Prophet is not likely to stand up and call out a specific artist or movie to avoid – but the Holy Ghost just might.
That’s right – it seems to go back to the instructions to the youth that I quoted earlier: “Have the courage to walk out of a movie, change your music, or turn off a computer, television, or mobile device if what you see or hear drives away the Spirit.”
Is it possible that the Holy Ghost might give someone a nudge and say, “You really shouldn’t keep watching ‘House of Cards.'” Absolutely. (If he hasn’t already fled.) I imagine the Holy Ghost tries to chime in on our entertainment choices a lot more often than we are willing to listen.
Did David Bowie of 1970 bother me morally? Yes. Did David Bowie of 1983 bother me – not so much. Artists can evolve. They can also devolve. So can our standards. Maybe we don’t turn off Katy Perry’s first hit like we used to when it first came out. We can get numb to the decline. (Insert boiling frog metaphor here.)
That is why I need to judge wisely. I need to judge the art for what it really is. I need to judge the artistry for what it is, and the impact it can have on me personally, and culturally. And, I need to judge the artist and decide if his/her contribution to society is something I am willing to support with my money and fandom. (Do I have to jump through all those hoops before I should click “Buy” on iTunes or Fandango? Ugh. Sounds complicated.)
It is a truism to say that we need to listen to the Holy Ghost when making decisions about our entertainment. Unfortunately, it is too easy to ignore that still, small voice when I have already plunked down my money, and have a large of popcorn and a drink in my hand, and I am siting comfy in my reclining theater seat, or the album has already been purchased, downloaded and is playing loudly in my car.
I know that I have probably generated more questions than answers, but hopefully this post will give you pause for thought. I did me. On a personal level, I need to take a harder look at what goes into my head and home, as well as what and who my money is supporting. I’m not a “boycott” kind of guy, but I also need to figure out how far my responsibility extends into the public arena.
I have often embraced The Bowie Effect – I have cherry-picked the stuff I like without giving much thought to the bigger picture. Now I’m not so sure I can continue to justify that.
What do you think?
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I have a few random thoughts: As LDS members, we acknowledge the good and the truth found in other religious traditions w/o condoning everything they teach.
I believe much of this discussion comes down to two things: 1 – what are they promoting? 2 – will this help me be more Christlike?
The scriptures have lots of violence and immorality, but of course they are appropriately discussed in that context and are therefore good. I once saw a play done by senior missionaries in Nauvoo where the Elder said “damn” in his pioneer role, but then his wife chided him and he improved his language.
People who have lifestyles we don’t agree with can have moments of inspiration that show through their art, and we can focus on and encourage those things.
This great discussion leads me to something else I’ve wondered – choosing friends. Having grown up in a place where being LDS was a small minority, it bugged me to no end if I ever heard of people who wouldn’t let their kids be friends with anyone who wasn’t LDS. What about opportunities for missionary work and/or building bridges with those of their communities? On the other hand, people can be a bad influence and you may lower your standards, sometimes w/o realizing it, and we definitely don’t want that.
My fear is that so much trash is so commonplace in art that people don’t stop to realize how pervasive and not good it really is, and we are more permissive than we should be of what we decide to expose ourselves to. Hopefully we keep perspective and maintain high standards in spite of what goes on around us.
“So be kind regarding human frailty—Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it. So should we. And when you see imperfection, remember that the limitation is not in the divinity of the work. As one gifted writer has suggested, when the infinite fulness is poured forth, it is not the oil’s fault if there is some loss because finite vessels can’t quite contain it all. Those finite vessels include you and me, so be patient and kind and forgiving.” Jeffrey R. Holland
It’s interesting that many of the “classical” composers and artists led lives of immorality. For example, Richard Wagner was a womanizer and preached anti-Semitism. Although his antics were well-known during his life, now we think only of his art. It seems to me that we need to separate the two, but choose our role-models very carefully.
To start with, having read through the comments, I perceive that the “difficulty” in this question, which is mentioned by so many, lies in ourselves, and NOT in the question itself. How many of us sitting in our favorite (coincidentally world famous) restaurant and about to partake of our favorite (also world famous) stew would go ahead and eat the whole dish after finding a dead fly or clearly identifiable mouse dropping floating in it? Or how if we observed the (world famous) “chef” exit the kitchen in a visually and olfactorily observable totally unhygienic state? How many of us, hearing our friends relate the same experience, would return to that restaurant and even order the same dish? How many of us would freeze-dry a quart or two of the stew (or anything else by that chef or out of that kitchen) for later consumption? Keeping in mind in the above metaphorical hypotheses, the old sayings that “you are what you eat” and “you can’t unsee/unhear/untaste what you have by whichever means, chosen to ingest, in the light of 1Ne10:21, it behooves us all to focus on “SEEK” as the critical active word in the 15th A of F. “Seek” is an active, not a passive word. It is a verb transitive, not intransitive. It’s very nature inevitably includes an object(s) which we seek, just as direction precedes velocity, and the Savior’s promise (Matt7:7) is attached . I submit that if we are truly actively and exclusively seeking those things described in the 15th A of F, those things which do not meet its criteria will be totally crowded out of consideration (consumption). 1Ne16:1 ? 1Ne16:2!
I think this is a good topic for thought. I do consider what the artist has done in the past, and statements they have made before I buy their stuff. You just have to be careful with every thing you consume, even media.
Can’t wait to hear what you think about Springsteen…
Not a big enough fan to have an opinion…
I’ve been thinking about this subject a lot in the past year. I really think at some point (maybe that time has already come) the options for latter-day saints (at least with movies) will be few and far between. I love going to the movies but really when I go over the movie options with a fine tooth comb and apply the the spoken words of by our leaders about what to avoid, the options at least for me are few.
Great post. This is hard for me because as a rule, I do not see many R rated films. But there are ways in which the movie rating thing in Hollywood doesn’t work. Mostly it does. But for one example, The Kings Speech was a wonderful movie. One in which almost all ages can benefit from. It was an R rating because of the use of a certain word. Too bad because it was a most educational and entertaining film. There is never a need to insert that word into making an otherwise wonderful movie to obtain the R rating.
I wanted to see it badly, but didn’t. I was rewarded when they released a PG-13 version, without the onslaught of profanity. I was able to have my cake…
I always think about what the Prophet and the twelve would watch/listen to/sing. Since I’d like to be more like them, I really, really try not to watch/listen to/sing something I can’t imagine them doing.
I think that you would need to avoid more than you think. If you look at the lives and habits of many of the classical composers you would find flamboyant or immoral behavior. Some of their lives we might learn about and find objectionable but we listen to their music anyway. I think we can listen to the music itself and feel if it is uplifting and still avoid that that does not lift us up even if it is by the same artist. The same with music and all artistic endeavors.
If I buy a performance of Beethoven’s music, Beethoven isn’t getting any of the money to further his fame or objectional behaviors that might impact current culture. Apples and oranges.
So if the artist is dead and the money just goes to a faceless holding corporation then it’s alright. I don’t think that what all these commenters are wringing their hands over isn’t just about who gets the money. It’s about the perception that someone might think that they’re “condoning” someone’s lifestyle as they judge it to be wrong or imperfect or sinful.
Ack thank you for this post. It’s been upfront on my mind for many years. Really hit home, sounds like for a lot of people. Gives me much to think about.
I was thinking the other day how grateful I am for your blog and posts. What a refreshing, “safe” blog. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for continuing on with it.
Thank you for sticking with me all these years!
It probably depends on the “product” they are selling you. For example, if I disagree with the lifestyle of a waiter or waitress, it is not my job to withhold a tip from them for that reason. I should base my tip on the service they provide, not on who I’m supporting. What they choose to do with tip money is their choice that they will be held accountable.
With music, if I know someone is publicly advocating a position that is harming the family, then I will probably choose not to buy the music in the first place, regardless of how I might like the “product.” It’s one of the sacrifices we make to “rid our garments” of blood from this world.
With a movie, most of the money is not centered around one actor/actress the way that music is, so that’s a tougher call. I’d probably make my choice based on what the movie itself promotes, not usually any one actress or actor.
It certainly is a great discussion. As I’ve thought about this exact thing over the years, I’ve concluded that I’ll enjoy whatever art that feels uplifting. The artists who created the beautiful classical pieces we so love were not always moral. Some were womanizers, drunks, drug addicts, you name it. I see it this way, if it inspires you and fills you with joy, then it’s ok. We don’t know that perhaps the spirit inspired an artist, who otherwise makes bad moral choices, for that moment, to create something grander. I say let the spirit guide us in our choices.
Good people can make bad choices. Bad people can make good choices. Wait…I mean to say PEOPLE make CHOICES! I am no saint, but I have done a few good things in my life. Those things ARE good, even though I am not perfect.
Good is good and bad is bad. Does it lead us to the Savior or away?! There is nothing else. It’s not rocket science.
I enjoyed reading this and thought carytalbot’s comment was great! xo
D&C 58:26-29 comes to mind. Fantastic post.
I still consumed Nabisco crackers and cookies (I love Oreos) when RJ Reynolds was the parent company of Nabisco. I guess I was supporting “big tobacco” by eating Oreos, Shredded Wheat and Honey Graham Crackers. I suppose it is a personal choice. How about donating to the Boy Scouts? I know a lot of people who won’t donate to Friends of Scouting for “political” reasons, yet we have been asked by church leaders to support these drives as we can. This had been a very thought provoking discussion, thank you.
Thank you for the thought-provoking commentary. As a big music fan (approaching 20,000 songs in my iTunes library), I’ve thought about this a lot over the years. I’ve gotten a bit more choosy in what I listen to over the years, and I like how the digital music revolution has made it easier to do so. It’s a lot easier to just delete a sketchy song from a playlist than was is to try to fast forward through one when playing a cassette!
Choosing music based on the image or values or lifestyle of the performer is a harder call. In my own mind, I can usually separate the artist from the art, but I admit there are a few artists and albums I avoid just because I don’t want that name sitting on my CD shelf.
I think it’s easier as an adult. We tend to be more sophisticated in our thinking and more able to separate artistic output from the personality of the artist. For teenagers, I think it’s a much shorter trip between “I like this music” to “I like this artist” to “I want to be like this artist,” and maybe even more care is needed in selection of both artist and art.
Digital music has made it harder to provide guidance for youth, I think. My parents could always tell what I was listening to by looking at the albums on my shelf; it’s much less obvious what comes up on my son’s Spotify playlist. I think it requires more intentional parenting than it used to.
I guess it all comes down to following the Spirit and making good choices for ourselves, and trying to help our children do the same. Spiritually take our protein pills and put our helmets on, so to speak. 🙂
Love this post. It’s sad to me that I lost a friend over the fact that I chose not to see movies with an “R” rating. I explained my position to her, it didn’t matter. I agree with so much of what’s already been said, I’m not sure I can add anything. I do know that if I listen to the spirit whispering the 13th article faith in my ear……I make better choices in what I watch and listen to.
Since when was there colors of grey for sin. It’s either black or it’s white. I was trained in classical piano and boy, are those composers that we revere a bag of mixed morals…same with the poets/authors that are often quoted. Can we not just enjoy the music for music sake? Oh well…that’s my 2 cents…and btw, I’m Jocelyn’s mom.
I love this post. It all goes back to the very basic: we have been given our agency to choose, and it is a great gift. While we should judge for ourselves what is right and proper for us, we shouldn’t judge others for their choices. Sometimes we need to do that if it involves us (at their house watching a movie or choosing one at the movie house when we are with them, or when our children are in their home) but this is why we are here. To learn to choose well and feel the blessings from that. Sometimes it can be a minefield…….
In a talk in the April 1983 GC entitled “Fear Not to Do Good,” Pres. Hinckley said, “I wish that every family in the Church would write out that article of faith and put it on a mirror where every member of the family would see it every day. Then, whenever we might be tempted to do anything shoddy or dishonest or immoral, there would come into our minds with some force this great, all encompassing statement of the ethics of our behavior. There would be less rationalizing over some elements of our personal conduct which we try to justify with one excuse or another.”
I’ve tried to write out several different comments about this quote and how I’ve applied it, but they’re all coming out preachy and I am by no means an example of “perfect” choices in media. However, I’ve started to use this idea as a standard in my life and it’s blessed me. 🙂
You put into words exactly what I was thinking about everyone’s comments on Bowie’s passing. He was a great Goblin King but I’m not sure how much I’ll miss everything he contributed to society. Thanks for the thoughts.
I tend to pick and choose. Got so mad at the Dixie Chicks in 2001 that I stopped buying their music and eventually sold my three CDs. Love Streisand’s voice. Hate her politics. I can listen to her. Won’t watch anything with Russell Crowe in it because of Meg Ryan. Have not gone to anything of hers since but still have You’ve Got Mail. I check the IMDb for anything I think I might want to see. If there’s language or sexuality, I don’t go. (I hold myself to the standards I kept when I was a temple worker or a RS president.) Needless to say, I don’t see a lot of movies. I’m still working to refine my standards. Thanks for another good, thought provoking post.
This is a hard question. Very hard because people do so many different things in their careers. Pharrell Williams, who brought us “Happy,” also brought us “Blurred Lines.” Danny Kaye, who brought us The Court Jester, was in a relationship with Laurence Olivier, who brought us Rebecca. (I have not yet dug up any dirt on Gene Kelly, thank goodness, but he’s one of the few.) What I’ve chosen to do is take each song individually and each movie individually on its merits alone unless I’m prompted to avoid an artist altogether, which has happened. I think it comes down to their fruits. How does a song/movie/book make you feel? What’s your take home from it? David Bowie, quite frankly, gives me nightmares – I actually mean that literally. Every time I’ve seen Labyrinth or seen any other appearance by him, I’ve had very weird, creepy dreams that night. That, for me, is an unpleasant fruit.
I have no answer to this conundrum. I think it all boils down to choice which is a beautiful gift that Christ sacrificed enormously to give us. I think that Christ was very aware of all of the choices that we would be faced with, in fact I don’t think there is even one choice no matter how difficult that he wasn’t aware of. So use your judgement, use it in all things for yourself but try not to project it onto others choices…probably one of the hardest things isn’t it…
The Tom Hanks issue that you brought up…I can say that he is well aware of Mormonism, what it means to be LDS, he knows all about it. He had an LDS Step Father for a time, he went to LDS church growing up, I believe his Mother converted but he never actually was baptized. So he does know more about it than the average individual who has no knowledge beyond cultural stereotypes. Not that, that justifies the unkind comment he made but there could have been more behind it than what many assumed, if that makes any sense. Glad that he apologized though, I love his movies especially his work and dedication to telling the stories of WWII…Saving Private Ryan was a good movie, and the series that he produced called The Pacific was good to…I’m grateful for film makers like him who tell stories that need telling.
Nice post MMM.
So three things…
1. Great post, I know I already said this but it isn’t very often that I think about a blog post as much and return to comment, so way to go MMM on a great thought provoking post!
2, That picture has to have come from google or something right? You don’t actually have a circa 1970’s David Bowie Barbie do you?
3. I think that the 11th article of faith kind of covers this conundrum…in a sense…like all scripture it is meant to have one read between the lines, to glean the deeper meaning. My interpretation of it means we are to respect others beliefs…now is art a belief system? Possibly, many would argue that it is, many would argue that the art an artist produces is their way of celebrating a higher power. Are some a bit misguided? Yes. Are some confused? Probably. But appreciating a piece of music that an artist produces, or a film they make can be done on its own…in my opinion.
Its like the whole love the sinner hate the sin concept, maybe David Bowie stood for or did some things that don’t jive with our belief system, that doesn’t mean that everything he did was terrible. He can work it all out himself with God. It makes perfect sense to shield oneself from the negative but at the same time that doesn’t mean living under a rock. I think the point is for us to save our judgements for ourselves, if some piece of music or art gives you a bad vibe just walk away, change the channel, but cutting oneself off from everything that a certain artist did seems like one is missing the point entirely.
Just a few extra thoughts…
I believe we have a larger role in defending what is good and uplifting, and fighting against that which degrades our society. I think we have a duty to do more than just “change the channel.”
Here is someone who seems to agree with me: M. Russell Ballard. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/10/let-our-voices-be-heard?lang=eng
Thanks for sharing this…you have a point but I believe I do as well…all goes right back to persona choice doesn’t it…might want to purge your collection of quite a bit, including the band U2 lol…it is a very interesting thought provoking thing to consider though…and I would say send all those CD’s to the dump because selling them on E Bay is just perpetuating things…thanks for sharing this MMM, it seriously is one of your best IMO…have a lovely evening!
I do believe you have a point, I was just discussing.
As far U2 goes, I think they are polar opposite of what you are saying. They are overtly and outspokenly Christian in their music and personal lives, all are family men, Bono has been married to the same woman for 30+ years, and he leverages his fame to try and do good in the humanitarian world. That said, they are on the wrong side of some social issues…
This was a discussion on Christmas Day with our family. I wanted to watch “The Secret Life of Walter Mitty” but one of my family members said she never watches anything by Ben Stiller because he’s not a good person. But this was my favorite PG movie and it has a beautiful story and message. Instead we watched something with Humphrey Bogart, and I wondered what I could dredge up about him. I think we need to quit worrying about judging the person and just judge how the entertainment invites the spirit or not.
Sadly, Bogart cheated with his leading ladies. So, yeah.
Great coverage of the topic from both sides. Good food for thought. I’ll think more before I buy.
Brilliant. A conundrum I have been having internally for years and in fact still face. I have no answer either. We each must choose unto ourselves. I generally do not see rated R movies but did so for The King’s Speech. Shortly after saw a PG-13 movie that was shocking that it was not R. Again, not a black and white world, just every shade in between.
I kind of only started with the early 80’s Bowie, so I never thought he was all that controversial. My sister informed me of his past stuff. My judgement then was, “Well, I think he’s okay now”. I used to think “Oh my goodness, this artist is so wonderful! What a good person they are! ” based off one interview. Then I’d find out something else and I was dissappointed. I realized you really can’t look up to anyone for one all out great example- except Jesus Christ. Even the best people might feel it’s okay to do or say something that the Holy Ghost has told us personally, to stay away from. So for me, this is something I have thought about since I was in high school and really making decisions about what music I wanted to listen to. I had access to less than uplifting shows and some music in my home, and had seen a lot of very bad when I was very young (no my mom wouldn’t have approved, she just didn’t know), so I spent a lot of time in my room listening to an LDS radio station that was on an AM station in UT. I would rarely buy tapes (then CD’s) of any artist, because I always found songs on there I didn’t like, but I’d fast forward through those. But I was always thinking “Well, maybe I just shouldn’t listen to any of these people, or watch any movie. But then I really would never see any movie or listen to any music. Over the years I have concluded, for me, I don’t think much “art” is worth buying, in one form or another, just because it’s not a big priority. I do buy some movies I like to watch with my teens that I won’t let my littler ones watch (like Hunger Games), but I think it’s fine cherry pick, especially music! It’s making a choice when we do.
Today, we have the advantage of saying “I like this particular song, so I am going to buy just it” What a great thing! Not to mention, more music that’s worth while (although hard to sort through and find) is available because of that same feature. Artists don’t have to have a label to be hear on the radio anymore and wait for their video on MTV (when they still did those- I have been thinking a lot of “Dancing in the Street with Bowie and Jagger. Everyone should look it up, because, well, it just makes me laugh. It was the video I was like “Man, you old guys are trying to be so cool” but I still watched it. It’s just silly and fun and I think we need more of that. My son loves him some crooners and jazz, some older rock and a cappella stuff, so you won’t find much modern music on his ipod. What a day and age we live in! Everything is everywhere though, and our job is to make good choices and self monitor ourselves so we don’t damage that connection to the Holy Ghost. So even though I was a mild fan of David Bowie, especially when he sings with Bing Crosby, I think, “you’re alright Mr. Bowie”. I think so much of his stuff was about showmanship, just like so many other artists. That’s another benefit of music today- not everyone has to be a showman.
There is still not a ton of things I’ll watch or listen to, but I think I have more options and control over that than I have in the past, and I am thankful for that.
I actually think when someone with a history of sketchy material produces something more on par with my values it SHOULD be cherry picked in support of it. We shouldn’t hold people to their decisions for life. Being in the lime light has that effect on our memories(the not forgetting part). We don’t know if they are changing/changed/the same. We can’t judge that as easily as the other things you mentioned. What if it was your son/daughter/sibling/friend/etc. that made some obviously bad decisions and then made one that was for-sure great? You would definitely support.
This is something I have been thinking about recently too. I know people that boycott businesses as well as individual people. It is virtually impossible to make sure your money goes to a place that supports your values 100%. Big corporations may support some policy that you are vehemently against. I’ll bet you their employees don’t all agree. Just an example.
Good thinky stuff.
I agree that we should always allow for, and hope for improvement, and reward it where we can.
I marvel at the beauty and mastery of Mozart’s talent and what he gave the world in his compositions but from what I understand of his personal life, he’s not one I would want myself or my children (or anyone for that matter) to emulate. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir evidently feels the same way about his music. Some more contemporary examples: I enjoyed Anne Hathaway in “The Other Side of Heaven” and also in “Les Miserables” but I choose not to ever watch her performance in “Brokeback Mountain”. But that doesn’t change the good messages that are contained in and conveyed by her artistry in the two movies I do enjoy. Same with one of my favorite rock bands, Rush. I really enjoy almost all of their music (both musically and lyrically) and have appreciated the fact that they, compared to most other rock bands, seem to have higher standards (granted the floor of that comparison pool is very low). However, not all of what they produce passes my 13th Article of Faith test and so I choose not to listen or purchase those songs or albums (hooray for being able to individually buy songs!). Still doesn’t diminish the enjoyment I have in lyrics like, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
For me its similar to the notion that truth is truth and can be found anywhere, sometimes even in surprising places. I try to embrace all that is true but just because I found something true in, say, Buddhist teachings, that doesn’t mean I need to embrace or promote all of Buddhism. The 13th AoF is such a good test, I think. “If there is ANYTHING virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after THESE things (my emphasis added).” My addition is “but ONLY those things” – which is sometimes difficult to live by because the adversary is very adept at packaging his fiery darts in some pretty darn appealing and even praiseworthy packages.
I admire a man who can work Rush lyrics into a religious conversation. Thanks.
True story: we had a young-ish Bishop being released from a Ward in our Stake after five years of faithful service. In his farewell testimony he quoted “the lyricist Neil Peart”:
I’m not looking back
But I want to look around me now
See more of the people and the places that surround me now
Freeze this moment a little bit longer
Make each sensation a little bit stronger
I wondered at the time how many in the congregation knew from what band those lyrics had come. Afterward I congratulated the newly former Bishop on being the first person I knew to successfully use Rush lyrics in a Spirit-filled testimony.
I’ve always loved “Time Stand Still.” Props to your bishop.
Way to use your free will!
This topic is very interesting and should give each of us pause – I have been a ‘boycott’ kind of person in the past but found out I might have to go to some remote island to truly disengage myself and all of my financial support that might be going toward a person or cause that I find in conflict with my standards.
THAT said I do believe I have an obligation to judge between right and wrong and to teach what is right and to voice what I believe is wrong – especially to those closest to me. I also realize that people (including artists) can grow and mature and change over their lifetime – and that I would want people to judge me in the end on the message that I promoted of what I learned about doing good and being my best (though your sins be as scarlet…)
Well, I don’t know much of Bowie specifically but I do know the effects of overdoing most anything – I do know the effects of losing our innocence – as individuals and as a society.
We cannot overstress the importance of – not only listening to the Holy Ghost but following His prompting – (see President Nelson’s comments to the young people Sunday evening)
So, when someone dies we tend to memorialize them – but we need to remember that just because someone is known all over the world it doesn’t necessarily mean what they did was good or bad – that’s where judgment (righteous judgment of course) comes in… and we best be about being able to do that…make judgments.
I don’t have the answers. But it bothers me how much I want to see a movie that I know will make light of or support content that is against my beliefs. Or it bothers me that it’s difficult for me to turn off something I’m already watching because I want to see how it ends. The reality is that it’s only a half hour to a three hour movie or show. Can I really not think of anything interesting or exciting to do for that length of time that’s worth my time? Shouldn’t that seem more appealing to me than seeing someone play out a fake story? If that were the case it would be easy for me to only support good people and causes and my conscience would be clear.
Another thing I’ve wondered is, do the general authorities watch movies of today?
I can’t count the times I have been engrossed by a movie preview, only to be doused with frustration when the rating appears. I hate that!
Agreed! And I hate the fact that I somewhat morn over the fact I can’t see it .I’m an adult. I have a testimony. I know what’s good for me and I know that setting an r rated movie will not be good for me in any way. Then why is it so hard?
I just listened to Elder Russell M. Nelson’s CES YSA Christmas Devotional. Several things in his talk struck me….hard. “It will become less and less popular to be a Latter Day Saint.” Wow… “We need to spend more time in Holy Places” (like the Temple) and doing things that invite the Spirit and lets it stay with us. “Abrahamic sacrifice did not end with Abraham.” Double WOW! And another oldie but goodie, Elder Maxwell’s quote about maintaining our summer residence in Babylon. All point to the fact that we are and will be called upon to make hard choices to stay on the Lord’s side…..
I was planning on sharing these thoughts from Elder Nelson’s broadcast from this past Sunday evening (1/10/2016) that you mentioned above. Great talk to listen to, and gave me a lot to think about at my tender mix-60’s age. Great addition to this chain.
My child might make 100 bad decisions but when he makes a good one I really try to praise him for it and point out what a great choice he made in hopes that he will want to continue to make good choices. I think we should support artists in the same way. When they do something that is virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we should praise it and encourage them to do more, but not praise the bad stuff that they have done. Hopefully they will get the picture and want to provide more uplifting entertainment.
Maybe we need to “paint” the picture with emails, tweets, etc.
I often wish there were “LIKE” buttons to posts… I would have used it a number of times in this chain of comments.
My feelings, exactly!
I agree completely
I loved reading your thoughts about this. I remember hearing an interview with an actor where he was asked by the interviewer if he had a problem starring in a movie written by a Mormon, since Mormons espouse views so opposed to his own. I was floored by the question and immediately wondered if ANY of the LDS talent out there had ever been asked if they had a problem working with people who hold views opposed to theirs. They would never work, and, if I used that as my standard, I would be home alone in silence. You mention music, tv, and movies, but it goes further. Even classical artists and musicians lived lives and held views that oppose mine and that were shocking In their day. (The argument extends well beyond art; I might not ever shop or consume anything if I only spent my money with organizations that are “good”.) I have thought about this a lot and honestly do not have any answer. Some stuff, like you said, has a line clearly drawn for us (explicit container, rated r, etc). I’m grateful for those lines because it makes fewer for me to draw. I also think some artists will make us so uncomfortable that we may find ourselves avoiding them, which is fine. That just leaves us to muddle through the the gray, middle area. It is cliche, but true, that no one is perfect, and imperfect people have contributed great beauty to this world. I have been truly uplifted by the art created by all kinds of people. I’m grateful for the beauty and creativity that come to the imperfect people in this world and that make my life better and more enjoyable. There is no substitute for the Holy Ghost, no decision matrix we can draw, no easier answer. We’ve got to have Him present to guide us through.
Well-written and thought-provoking post, Brad.
I don’t agree with your point about language, because language is a subjective experience. A word in English can change meaning over time, such as: ‘awful’ and go from a positive uplifting word ‘filled with awe’ to a derogatory expression (and vice versa). I have other examples of words that are considered vulgar or obscene today that used to be acceptable in mixed society (men and women).
Words can mean something different based on culture (the word ‘bloody’ comes to mind where in the UK, it used to be akin to an F-bomb; yet means nothing like that in the US). Then there’s the whole subject of foreign languages that can be mis-translated or simply misunderstood (especially if you don’t understand the language or the culture).
I know we disagree on this point, but maybe someday we will reach agreement 😉
(Had to go back and read where I wrote about language…) Yes, language can change over time, and can mean different things in different cultures, but that is rather irrelevant to the discussion, as I live here. Now.
Very interesting. I am a 63 year old grandma. I like to rock out in my mini van. Van Halen, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Kiss, Queen etc. one day I went to take my 3 oldest grandchildren to piano lessons, they are 15-13-9, the 15 year old said “should we be listening to this?” (Probably not) the 13 year old asked, ” Grandma, could you please turn the music down?” (Yes, I sure can) It was then pointed out to me that if I listen to a certain classic rock radio station they have promised all songs with no bad words! Out of the mouths of babes!
I want to be like you when I am a grandma. In both listening to my grandkids and rocking out in my minivan. 😀
I think the issue is very complex. We can’t always know what any given actor, musician or artist’s personal standards and beliefs are, so it gets tricky to say we’ll avoid something based on their stance. On the other hand, we CAN know what the content of their films, music or art is, so we can avoid things on that basis.
I was a huge Queen fan as a young person (still am) and their music is amazing. I didn’t know anything about Freddie’s lifestyle in those days (he wasn’t one to flaunt his sexuality) but I do now. I still love their music, and in 27 albums I don’t think I ever heard a single swear word.
“Don’t Try Suicide” from The Game is the only significant exception that comes to mind. A few other songs are uncomfortably explicit, IMO. But yes, for the most part Queen made pretty decent music.
I had these exact same debates with myself and discussions with my husband after Michael Jackson’s passing a few years ago. The man was a genius in his music and his dancing skills, but some of his songs were not very uplifting and we certainly did not agree with his lifestyle. We came to the same (non) conclusion you did: there is no clear black or white, right or wrong answer. We need to be led by the Spirit. And yes, it is hard to listen to the Spirit after we’ve already bought the album or the movie ticket, but I promise it gets easier the harder you try. There have been several movies or songs we’ve turned off, and we regret the loss of that money spent, but we feel better knowing that we obeyed the prompting we received.
This reminds me of an experience I had as a teenager. I was riding shotgun in the family van while my mom drove and a John Denver song came on the radio. Immediately, and uncharacteristically, my mom started grumbling about having to listen to a song by this adulterous man, to the point that it was interfering with the possibility of hearing or enjoying the music. Now, I have no specific love for John Denver, the man or the music (in fact, like most people my age I was introduced to both by my parents), but I thought it was ridiculous to let one’s complaints about an artist’s personal life interfere with one’s enjoyment of the art he creates, and I told her so. I guess that’s the distinction I make. Sometimes it’s impossible to separate the artist from the art, because of the subject or feeling of the piece in question. But other times the artist’s creations transcend their personal life and choices, because that is the nature of art. Thankfully, we are all capable of creating something better than we are through divine gifts and inspiration and work.
I LOVE John Denver music! He has some great stuff. Not a perfect life, but some great music that really focused on good things, in my opinion. I am glad you had that thought 🙂
It’s a tough call. Frankly I don’t pay attention much to the private lives of celebrities, so I don’t always know what kind of person they are. Sometimes celebrities are so public about their lives and opinions that even I know what they think and advocate, but most of the time I am ignorant. Therefore I rarely make my entertainment decisions based on the celebrity who is doing the entertaining.
Another difficulty is that what merits a PG-13 or R rating is different today than it was 20 or 30 years ago. There are ideas and behaviors and words that in my youth would have merited an R rating, but today does not. What society deems acceptable is not what the Holy Ghost deems acceptable.
When all is said and done, I try to follow the direction of the Spirit when I’m spending my entertainment dollar. Sometimes I do better than other times. Let the Holy Spirit guide.
I agree. Using the rating system is risky. The ratings board is overly generous with PG-13s.
In saying that though, after being sick to death of the shocking attitudes and messages that are in the modern day movies, i sat my kids down to some good old fashioned clean movies so they could see the difference.
Turns out the good “old fashioned” movies I’d remembered from 20-30 years ago weren’t so great either.
Indiana Jones. ..Back to the future. ..my kids ended up telling ME off about the amount of violence and bad language that were in them.
*bows head in shame* ?
We’ve had the same problem with those good 80s movies. The language is HORRENDOUS!! We do stream those movies now through the fabulous online editing plce we found. No kids under 13 are allowed to see anything over PG, edited or not, but now they can see the old PG potty mouthed movies of our childhood sans the potty mouth. 😀
Right?!? I’ve noticed the same thing. I would have thought I’d have been VERY aware of that stuff as an especially naive child/youth. I guess I was plenty oblivious.
Oh!!! By old-fashioned I thought you meant Cary Grant! My girls, young mothers, love Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn. I’m a fan of (real) old movies, so that’s what they were raised on.
Gene Kelly, anyone?
I don’t have the answers either to some of these excellent questions. What I have found though, is that as I immerse myself in the BEST books, movies, and music–you know, the ones that make you want to be a better person and just make you feel really good inside–my desire to watch anything that makes me feel “yucky” is much reduced. A good yardstick for me recently has been: how do I treat my family after watching/reading/listening to that?
Great thoughts. Thanks!
Great comment! I agree. There isn’t a lot of time when you actually get around to all the “best” anyway. 🙂 I am trying to get better at that. But I also have teenagers now, and they are great choosy people, in my opinion, but I do let them watch more than I did when they were little. And we have fun watching them together, and we pull a dad if there is a swear word (which is a buzzer sound or loud sound over that word, just with our mouths) or we fast forward parts. Music is a harder one though, because I listen and hear more than they do. I didn’t when I was there age. Am I making them think more about sex by pointing it out. IN their minds, they are changing it to another possible meaning. I can do the same thing, I just assume because they are musicians they probably mean the worse thing. But I really don’t know. We do pass over a lot of music that other families listen to though. Because we just have better stuff to listen to, usually on their ipods!
I feel the same way. The more of the BEST I surround myself with the less interest I take in the other. Thank you for the thoughts on how do I treat my family afterwards, what great insight.