Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darknes for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight. (Isaiah 5:20-21)
I dunno.
• I don’t know when, but my best guess is that society, and/or the courts, will eventually relent and allow marriage to be redefined to include homosexual marriages. It seems to be a relentless societal sea change that, like so many other issues, will eventually become the norm.
• I also don’t know how the Supreme Court will rule on Prop. 8 and the other case before it this week. If I could do that, I should quit my job and move to Vegas.
• In addition, I don’t know what impact gay marriage would potentially have on society, and I find it mildly amusing watching so many “experts” busily trying to pass their conjecture off as fact. Because, of course, government, media and special interest groups are all about accurate prognostication. Them and the weatherman.
• I don’t know how, or even if, allowing gay marriage would impact my immediate family. My guess is that we could minimize the impact if we work hard at it.
• I don’t know why people like to fight about this stuff. It makes me feel a bit uneasy.
Thankfully, there are a few things that I do know.
• I know that President Thomas S. Monson is a prophet. He has been called of God to lead the Church and declare God’s will to the world.
• I know that there are 14 other prophets serving as Counselors in the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
• I know that these men have been called of God, and God has said that when they speak “whether by my voice, or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1:38) I’ll take him at his word on that.
• Because of this, I know that God has an opinion on the issue of gay marriage. He is opposed. He thinks that marriage is between a man and a woman. I know that many people don’t like the idea that God still has a voice in matters such as these, and even fewer believe it.
• The prophets have taught through The Family: A Proclamation to the World, as well as countless talks and interviews, that the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are opposed to homosexual marriage.
• I know that believing this does not mean I lack compassion (I don’t), or that I am incapable of loving people with different lifestyles than mine (I do).
• I know that I sustain these prophets, and I treat the things they teach as if they were from God himself.
• I know that next week, during General Conference, I will be able to raise my hand to the square when asked if I sustain these brethren. Without hesitation.
• I also know that if I believed in, or was speaking out on behalf of gay marriage, I could not bring myself to raise my hand to sustain, because it would be a contradiction. Either I sustain the brethren, or I support gay marriage. I have to choose one.
• I know that later this summer, I will have two interviews where I will have to declare if I sustain these very brethren, and will also have to declare that I don’t support, or agree with those who teach ideas that are “contrary to or oppose those taught by the Church.” I would literally have to declare which side I am on, or justify my beliefs with some strained contortions.
If I stop and really dig down into this issue, I understand that – to me – it is not about society, or politics. It is merely another choice I must make – and I can’t sit on the fence: I can either support gay marriage, or I can sustain the prophets, and carry an honest recommend – I can’t do both. Anywhere inbetween lands me in a contradiction – neither hot nor cold. And we know God doesn’t have much use for that.
* Please note that I am talking about ME and MY beliefs in this post. This is not a “litmus test” as some of you are raging about. But it is for me.
How each of you answer those same questions is between you and God. So before you send a comment berating me for accusing or judging you, please step back, chill, and realize that I am not talking about you. (I probably don’t even know who you are.)
Sorry everybody – but I’m going to close out the comments. I can’t keep up and get my work done, and they are getting progressively nastier. It seems like the longer the post is up, the comments begin generating more heat than light.
COMMENTS CLOSED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
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The term marriage has been redefined here in England and Wales. Gay marriage is now legal.
The words mother, father, wife and husband are to be changed and widow is no longer a word to describe a deceased partner (husband/wife).
The impact that all this “equality” is going to have on society is alarming.
I’m not against gay relationships, nor am I for them… Humans are too complex to live alone and if they can find happiness with another of their own species, then fine… but to me, I always think of how un-natural the gay act of love is!
Okay… that aside.
I think just as gay marriage has been redefined, so will any other relationship – given time.
What’s to stop the polygamous cousins of the LDS to demand their rights to plural marriage… or other creeds that practice it unlawfully now? And what of paedophiles and their “rights”. Argh!
Can of worms.
But I’m just an old-fashioned ex Mormon who prefers the company of cats to humans. *Meow!
Dude! I was with you all the way to the “Ex-Mormon” part. COme back! We need you and your common sense.
I have wondered what President Monson meant in this interview with Deseret News.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695250131/Thomas-S-Monson-named-as-new-LDS-Church-president.html?pg=2
“Regarding another question about whether church members could disagree with the faith’s opposition to legalizing same-sex unions and still remain in good standing, he said the answer ‘depends on what the disagreement is.’
‘If it’s an apostasy situation, that would not be appropriate. If it’s something political, there is room for opinion here and there on either side.'”
Sorry everybody – but I’m going to close out the comments. I can’t keep up and get my work done, and they are getting progressively nastier.
It seems like the longer the post is up, the comments begin to generate more heat than light.
CLOSED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
I loved this and I needed this. Thank you.
AMEN, Brother!
I really appreciate your post, as well as how you’ve managed the comments. You’ve let sound arguments be posted and not the contentious ones that appear everywhere. I wish all comment threads were so civil. 🙂
I totally agree with this post.
I think when marriage is finally redefined there will be many repercussions, for a start all people of faith who believe marriage is between a man and a woman will labeled as bigots.
MMM, you might find this article of interest, I know I did. I found this person’s point of view very refreshing.
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/03/9432/
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/03/9432/
Nope Nope Nope. I understand this point of view and mostly respect it. However, it suggests that I cannot have more complicated feelings on the issue and still sustain the Prophet. It calls me a liar and a fraud. That might not be the intent of the author but that’s the result. Marriage under the LAW allows certain rights and I believe in equal rights under the LAW. This does not contradict my moral and religious convictions of what God recognizes. Marriage under the LAW and being sealed in the Temple are two different things. If we wanted people to only marry in the fashion that God would recognize, then we should fight for no marriage outside the temple to recognized, period. We can’t have it both ways. Either you impose your ENTIRE belief of marriage or you impose NONE of it. I choose to impose NONE of my beliefs on unwilling people. Can anyone of you who claim to agree so whole heartedly with the message say that it is God’s will to impose morals forcibly on the unwilling? Our church was once oppressed and threatened by this country because of how we wanted to define marriage. We lost. Now, another group is fighting for the same thing and we are on the side of the oppressors. I’m sorry but that’s just backwards and ignorant.
Adam: I did not call you a liar or a fraud. In fact, I never even mentioned you in the post. I talked about ME – like I usually do. I know myself, my testimony and my relationship with God, well enough to know that if I were to support same gender marriage, then I would be a fraud and a liar, and would deservedly be held accountable for it. Everyone is different.
Personally, I don’t know how big of an issue it would be for me if God’s servants had not called it out as a big issue.
Well said, MMM. You know where I stand. I believe that Pres. Monson and all the apostles are prophets. I support them 100%, and therefore I support the Church as a whole. The Proclamation is Church doctrine, and it is clear on this issue. The only marriage recognized is between a man and a woman. I live it, and I support it. I also follow Christ’s admonition to love my neighbors, all of them. It’s really as simple as: do you support the prophet or do you not? I do.
I’m gay and (inactive) Mornon. I realize I made the choice to leave the church. However, I did not choose my attraction. I’ve had spiritual experiences praying to my Father in Heaven as I struggled and wrestled with the torture inside me. One day I “came out” to my Heavenly Father and just told Him that I still want to do His will but I cannot be in His church. The love I felt was overwhelming. I hold that experience very close to my heart and I’m only paraphrasing the impact because I don’t want to sully it by sharing it with just anyone. It is my belief that God may not agree with homosexuality but He still loves us and wants us to come back to Him.
I’ve never been an activist until just recently. I always wanted to get married to a woman in the temple. I wanted the normal Mormon life with kids and all. The Church says I have to just stay abstinent. As if what I feel is wrong and evil. I’m human. I want love. I want the same things a straight couple has. Now I’m not saying I want the LDS church to allow gay marriage. I would just suggest that you think about your brothers and sisters who have fought inner demons and struggled with this attraction. There are several members like me that are gay. Yes, I chose my side of the fence, but I don’t necessarily like it. It came down to lying to myself and everyone else and pretending to be straight all the while being miserable inside OR accept myself and be at peace knowing that I’m in God’s hands. He knows my heart.
I’m also in the military now. I have met some of the most accepting and loving people here. In the Church that claims to be the true Church, I felt like I was on the outside looking in. Christ dwelled with the sinners. He said churches are for the afflicted, that the healthy need no physician. I challenge you to welcome a gay person into the congregation with open arms. Go to the streets and bring a homeless man to church. Even go to a strip club and get a stripper to come to church with you. Or even just someone who wreaks of smoke, who wears their sin in their clothes. They are not perfect. This is where the gospel of Christ can stand the test of the ages. This is where you can reach out to those in need. God’s children suffer inside and we just sit back and say “That’s so wrong. They chose that lifestyle. There is no hope for them.” God has not given up on me because I’m gay. My relationship with God is my own and I love Him with all my heart. I know Christ suffered for me and that my turmoil I have felt is only an iota of what He suffered for all of us as our Redeemer.
The Mormon in me agrees with you. But the gay man sees the flaws in your logic. The missionary in me understands but also sees those you are keeping out because your perspective is too one sided. My spiritual side is torn from reading this. And another darker part of me wants to say hurtful things so you can feel a semblance of what I feel. But I won’t do that. Because this reply isn’t really going to do much. It might spawn some heated debate, but in the end it won’t do jack but feed my need to vent.
Please, all I ask is that you take into consideration that you don’t know what people are dealing with. I still choose God. Marriage may or may not be in the cards for me. But why should my happiness be in the hands of people who think they know God’s will? Why should my happiness be in the hands of our government? Stand up for yourself, because that’s all I’m doing right now, but don’t profess that the Church will never sway or to even think you know what God thinks. I understand where you’re coming from. Really I do. I just needed to speak up. Thank you for your time.
Jake: I appreciate your comment, and the willingness to share the deeper parts that many of us never hear.
I think it is good for the regular old Mormon to read it. But I would caution against assuming that people like me and my readers have not opened their arms and congregations to gay people, or brought the smoker, or drunk to church, etc. Many of us have spent much of our lives in helping the sick (including ourselves) find healing.
God bless, and thanks for serving.
Thank you Jake.
Awesome, thanks.
Awesome. Thanks.
Thank you, well said.
As always well said MMM. Thank you. I had never actually thought of it in terms of sustaining the leaders, but you’re right in that too.
AMEN. AMEN. AMEN!!!!
You are 100% correct in everything you say here.
I wish I could put my thoughts into words like you do.
I am grateful for people like you who are not afraid to stand up, speak out, and defend the truth.
I have not read through the previous comments, but notice the one above me (from GKL1961) as I type- The first principle of the gospel is Faith- that would include having faith in God’s plan and following that plan- which as pointed out does not support gay marriage. Opposing gay marriage has nothing to do with being judgmental. I have a couple relatives who claim a homosexual lifestyle. I love them. I do not judge them- but when you say you don’t know what we are all afraid of- Ummm…how about God. The One who is ALL WISE. The One who KNOWS what He is talking about. The One who will JUDGE us one day. The one who has told us that gay marriage is WRONG.
Seems pretty simple to me- to be more concerned with what God thinks rather than what man thinks.
Defending truth does not equate to throwing stones.
MMM, this post is FANTASTIC! Thank you for not checking your religion at the door.
I can’t say anything more other than for those who ask what we are afraid of by gay marriage, I personally am afraid of the new legalities and laws that will change to support something that is now legal. Will my children be suspended from school for walking out for disagreeing with teachers or the new curriculum that undoubtedly will teach that gay marriage and gay parenting is equal to hetro marriage? What about the wedding cake company in Colorado who refused to do a lesbian’s “wedding” cake? He is being sued for his religious beliefs. What about Catholic Charities and adoption? They had to close it up in D.C. because gay marriage is legal there and they were so-called discriminating. How many adoption agencies will need to close due to religious principle? That is sad and ironic. Just a few examples of MANY that need to be considered.
When we change what is legal, the entire society must change and adapt its acceptance or laws to coincide. Of course there will be huge implications to everyone if gay marriage becomes the law of the land. How could it not affect us?
Satan’s best tool (one of many) is to have us believe that we should not judge anything. The Savior never congratulated, encouraged or condoned immorality. Was He being judgmental to people in scripture when he pointed out sinful behavior?
Elder Holland (quote below) that many are following the ultimate sophistry of Satan when we hear people say that we shouldn’t judge anything–especially moral issues. We’re falling right into Satan’s trap if we allow ourselves to not have wise judgement on moral issues. You can do this without attacking an individual or being hateful:)
Recent BYU Devotional from Elder Holland that sums it up well:
“You never check your religion at the door,” Elder Holland said, “not ever. That kind of discipleship cannot be. It is not discipleship at all.”
Elder Holland continued by describing the difficult balance between not judging at all and judging too harshly. He then shared a quote from the scriptures where Jesus Christ gave the solution to this problem.
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.”
Elder Holland went on to say that while judgement is needed, the key is to judge righteously as the Savior would.
Concerning civic matters, Elder Holland taught about how to approach sensitive issues.
“You’re going to have to sensitively explain why some principles are defended, and some sins are opposed wherever they are found, because the issues and the laws involved are not social or political, but eternal in their consequence. And while not wishing to offend those who believe differently than us, we are even more anxious not to offend God,” Elder Holland said.
Elder Holland continued, saying this applied to serious moral laws.
“If we don’t take gospel blessings to our communities and our countries, the simple fact of the matter is we will never, ever have enough policemen…to enforce moral behavior, even if it were enforceable (and it isn’t),” he said. “We must try to help when and where we can, because we are not checking our religion at the door, even as pathetic and irresponsible as some doors are.”
Well said MMM. I haven’t been by in a while (lots going on with a new baby!), but I saw a link to this post on FB, and had to come visit. I love what you had to say, and how you said it. I really couldn’t agree more!
Thank you for your post. It expresses how I feel.
I am a member. I do not know what you are all afraid of? If the SCOTUS strikes down DOMA and Prop 8; It doesn’t mean there will be an automatic rush for temple marriages nor do I think it’ll ever will be. This is a civil issue regarding basic human rights. I base my life on two mottos. “Judge not that ye may not be judge” and the “Golden rule” Ok, commence with the stoning.
We never said we were afraid, we simply said we would stand up for what we believe. There isn’t any stoning going on, and no one is condemning anyone. We just are agreeing that it is okay to defend what you believe in while still allowing others to also voice their opinions. we are not trying to stop others from using their voice, we are just wanting to exercise our right to have a voice also.
Elder Bednar talked about the potential ramifications of this issue here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__rgv-sUpY0
He’s smarter than I am, and he’s an apostle, so I believe him.
I am a member. I do not know what you are all afraid of? If the SCOTUS strikes down DOMA and Prop 8; It doesn’t mean there will be an automatic rush for temple marriages nor do I think it’ll ever will be. This is a civil issue regarding basic human rights. I base my life on two mottos. “Judge not that ye may not be judge” and the “Golden rule” Ok, commence with the stoning.
Having lived in Arizona when we were voting on the definition of marriage in our state, I clearly recall sitting in sacrament meeting, a little shocked as I listened to a letter from the First Presidency directing us to vote in favor of marriage between a man and a woman. Before that meeting I had already decided to vote against the proposition. In the performing arts, I have more gay friends than the average person might get to have. I love them. Their love lives didn’t affect me. I wanted them to be happy. I recall a frustration not unsimilar to the one I had when we were told to limit our ear piercings to just one… but on a much more personal, humanitarian scale. I was confused. I was stressed. I vented to my husband. I studied. I prayed. I voted as I had been instructed to vote. At that time I knew only one thing: that I had committed to follow the prophet. Since then, my love for our gay brothers and sisters has not wavered, but I like to think that I have gained a little more perspective. There is still much that I do not understand, and I am so grateful we have prophets on this earth to guide us. Thank you for a post that so eloquently describes how some committed followers of Christ are feeling right now.
Halee, Bravo for following the Prophet.
This one brought tears to my eyes. Good job! Thank you.
Thank you. Well said.
Thank you!
This is different from prohibition Paul. The prophet hasn’t spoken out in favor of prohibition. If he did, I’d think it was strange, but I would 100% get behind him on it – because he’s the prophet and maybe he knows something I don’t, like maybe there’s a flood coming, or Jerusalem is going to be destroyed, or there is a famine coming. We don’t always know why the prophets ask us to do things, but it’s always because they understand the outcome better than we do. That’s what a prophet is for.
I’ll fix that typo – thanks.
I wasn’t around to know the church’s stance on Prohibition legislation, so I don’t know how I would have dealt with that. I do know that the church has spoken our against redefining marriage, and I choose to support that counsel. The other items, extra-marital sex, pornography, etc. are straw men because there is not church opposed legislation being debated at the time.
But you do provide a perfect example of the mental gymnastics required to support something the brethren don’t.
Also: I have no problem with “civil unions” and shared benefits. But it ain’t marriage.
The history of Prohibition and the Church is fascinating. As you can imagine, President Heber J. Grant supported Prohibition and pleaded with the Saints not to vote for the 21st Amendment, which would repeal Prohibition (see quotes below).
Ironically, not only did Utah vote for the proposed 21st Amendment but it was the 36th State to ratify it, therefore pushing the bill into law. Now, did all those Saints that voted for it have to give up their Temple Recommend because they went against the counsel of Pres. Grant? I can’t say, and luckily I am not in a position to judge others if they are worthy to enter the temple. All I can do is be honest with myself, with God, and the Bishop (or whoever is doing the interview). You may call it “mental gymnastics,” but I need to do something to keep my mind in shape 🙂
There is room for political debate in the Church. Heck, for nearly a hundred years the Church prohibited black males from getting the priesthood. There was a lot of debate among the brethren on this issue. In 1978, when the Church officially allowed blacks to have the priesthood there were some members who were angry with the Church leadership, claiming that the leadership had apostatized and left, formed their own Church (they have a meetinghouse and temple in Modena, UT) clinging to the teachings of a bygone era and statements of former prophets.
My arguments on extramarital sex, porn may be straw men, but my point is there are many, many things that I am morally opposed to that are otherwise perfectly legal in our country. I also believe in agency, and do not believe that people should be forced by law to behave in a way that our Church teaches us to behave.
P.S. – I enjoy the debate and thanks for replying to my comment, I appreciate it. Here are the quotes from Grant on Prohibition.
I have heard Latter-day Saints say that we need the saloon to help pay our taxes. God pity the men whose consciences have become so elastic. Conference Report, Spring 1914, p. 27.
The money that is expended for tea, coffee, tobacco and liquor would take care of all the poor people in the world, it would save the world financially. Conference Report, Spring 1937, p. 14
With the help of the Lord to the very best of my ability, I warned this people not to vote for the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment. I warned them against lies that were being circulated to the effect that there was more drunkenness and more use of liquor than there had been when we did not have Prohibition. Millions of dollars of money, I am sure, was expended to have the Eighteenth Amendment repealed. Conference Report, Spring 1937, p. 13.
I have never felt so humiliated in my life over anything as that the state of Utah voted for the repeal of Prohibition. Conference Report, Fall 1934, p. 139.
That was fascinating. I appreciate your willingness to discuss. I had to turn on comment moderation because most people who disagree with me feel the need to do it with insult and profanity.
I think we look at this whole thing a bit differently. My issue isn’t about the laws and the courts, or even the court of public opinion. My issue is that God has defined marriage to be between man and a woman. His representatives have asked us to stand by that definition, and defend it.
The question for me is if I am willing to do what the prophet asks. And for me – personally – I could not raise my hand to sustain him if I was actively opposing his specific counsel. So, I imagine I would have voted with President Grant, or not raised my hand.
I see your point and I basically agree. If I may, not only has God defined marriage to be between man and a woman, he has also defined it to be an eternal union performed by priesthood authority in the Temple. This is “celestial” marriage. And wouldn’t it be ridiculous if the government only recognized that form of marriage, even though I believe it to be the only “true” form of marriage? Yes, it would be.
Unfortunately, there was a time when our government did not recognize our concept of celestial marriage (because they involved multiple wives), and, in many ways, still doesn’t. Our forefathers were slandered, tortured, denied the right to vote, denied the right to own property, in some cases murdered, because of our beliefs in marriage. Our forefathers sacrificed everything, left their homeland and crossed the Plains in order to practice their marriage beliefs without infringement by the government, a government that supposedly promoted religious liberty. I am so glad that I did not live in that time, it would have required great faith and determination. I don’t really have a point here, I just think that in the end it doesn’t really matter how the government defines marriage, what’s important is what marriage means to me, my spouse, my children and God. I do believe in equality before the law, and I believe gay couples should be afforded with all the civil benefits that the government bestows upon straight couples. Whether the government wants to call that “civil unions” or “civil marriages” or “marriage” or whatever. It’s silly, we’re fighting over a name.
Y’know, you two really are great! I can only aspire to be as calm and collected in my discussions as you both have proven to be. It’s a real gift, and I just wanted to say I appreciate it. You set a great example for debaters everywhere. =)
John: I’m going to print out your comment and frame it. Paul, do you want a copy?
haha, no thanks. The gay marriage/equality debate is certainly a tough issue that many people have had to grapple with. I appreciate the website that the church came out with recently. http://www.mormonsandgays.org
Back in 1996, my older brother returned home early from his mission suffering from a debilitating mental depression. He subsequently came out of the closet. I was 13-14 years old when all this happened. It was a very hard time for me and my family (and I can’t imagine everything that my brother has gone through). He left the church, moved across the country, and lived with a domestic partner. He would visit us for a few days around Christmas (my parents would not allow him to bring his partner), but that was about all I would see of him for several years. I love my brother, and you can bet have spent many hours fasting and praying that he would return to the church. As the years have gone by and I have gotten older, I realize that’s probably not going to happen. Have I lost faith? No. Do I think my parents should have handled the whole situation differently? Maybe, but maybe not. Don’t want to get too personal here, but this is where I’m coming from on the issue.
Anyways, MMM thanks for the discussion. I discovered your blog today and count me in as a new follower. I loved your blog post about Santa and Jesus, that’s something that’s always bothered me, and your pictures with Elf and other Christmas images photoshopped into Nativity scenes was the funniest thing I’ve seen in a long time. Keep up the good work.
“I also know that if I believed in, or was speaking out on behalf of gay marriage, I could not bring myself to raise my hand to sustain, because it would be a contradiction. Either I sustain the brethren, or I support gay marriage. I have to chose [sic] one.”
“I can either support gay marriage, or I can sustain the prophets, and carry an honest recommend – I can’t do both.”
I’m sorry, these statements are absurd. Of course one could do both and still be a worthy member of the Church. I am morally opposed to consumption of alcohol, but I do not support Prohibition. I am morally opposed to extramarital sex, but I do not seek to outlaw or criminalize it. I am morally opposed to pornography, but I support the freedom of others to view it. I am morally opposed to abortion, but I believe in being subject to governments and in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. I am morally opposed to gay marriage, but I believe gay couples should receive all the legal rights, benefits, and burdens of marriage that the State bestows upon heterosexual couples. My moral beliefs and legal beliefs are not totally congruent, and there is no tenant in our Church that requires them to be.
There are hundreds of thousands of Saints living in Canada, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Argentina, Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, and Sweden, all countries that recognize gay marriage. They can support the laws of their country, and also support and sustain the prophets.
Well-said.
Actually, MMM is completely correct. We either stand with God or we don’t. There is no fence sitting or hiding behind what is politically correct, or what is legally acceptable. We either embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ fully and completely or we don’t. The gospel is not a buffet where we pick and choose what we want to partake of. Just because something is legal does not make it moral or acceptable to God. Abortion, for example, may be legal but is completely immoral and wrong and is not acceptable to God. You cannot support anything that opposes the teachings of God and say that you support the prophets. They are in direct opposition. This is an excellent example of what has been prophesied about the division within the Church. Members will ultimately have to decide which side they are on. I choose God’s side.
How is it you always manage to eloquently put into words exactly what I am thinking? Thanks.
Thank you –beautiful post
Nicely said! The only other thing I would add is that I get so tired of hearing how they want “equality,” when even if gays can marry, they will never be fundamentally equal to a man and woman, because they CANNOT PROCREATE. And that as we know is the purpose of marriage.
And for those that are barren? Or those that marry after age of fertility? I am not saying that I don’t understand or agree with many of the statements the author made, but please, don’t write ignorant comments without thinking first.
Gonna side with mamagergs on the procreation thing. While it is a result, I think obedience is the bigger issue.
Do you not believe in eternity, you know life after this one? So what if you’re infertile here on earth, the desire to marry carries with it the hope and expectation of children, whether in this life or the next. And please ask Wendy Nelson and Kristen Oaks if they expect to have children in the next life otherwise, why would they have married in this one? Your own ignorance is showing sister.
Yes, while not all marriages of a man and woman ends in procreation, she is not wrong in her comment that a same-sex couple will never be equal to a man-woman marriage. They will not be able to bring the same things to the marriage that God intended. Whether procreation, divine natures, or eternal families.
Thanks, Lisa. That was my basic meaning–that fundamentally, a gay relationship cannot procreate. We can set aside all the what-ifs that this life throws at us (rest assured I’m not ignorant about infertility, etc) and the basic point remains.
I’m married and infertile. Also, I did not choose to marry for the sole intention of procreation, although it is a perk. Wanna tell me again that because of that infertility, a result of my husband’s cancer at 19 and my pituitary tumor, both caused by medical conditions out of our control, that we are not equal to or worthy of the same blessings in this life or the next life?
Also, it is truth that a homosexual couple is unable to procreate and that they will not be able to bring the same things to the marriage that God intended. Once again, does that diminish their divine natures in Heavenly Father’s eyes? No. They are still beloved children of His, all created equal. ALL. Condemn the sin, not the sinner. Stand for what you believe with empathy and love for humanity.
The way she said it might have been wrong, but she was right in essence –the first reason marriage exists was to multiply and replenish the Earth. Just because mortality is messy and there is pain and infertility doesn’t make that first commandment any less of a commandment. The point that marriage between a man and a woman is only for love is the very argument SSM supporters are using –that marriage should ONLY be about love between two consenting adults.
But a woman and a man have the POTENTIAL to have children, regardless of infertility or physical limitations. They will have children in the eternities. Children adopted into a family with a mother and father have the best chances in life. God sanctions marriage first for children and second for love.
That’s not being mean. It’s simply a fact. *shrug
My thoughts exactly, though you are much more eloquent than I. Thank you!
Aw darn. I should’ve waited on my blog post and just copied and pasted yours onto my blog. well done.
Thank you. Well said.
Great post. Very eloquently written. It is about what side we’re on. I choose the Lord’s side. And I think we all need to treat each other with more kindness and respect, on both sides of this issue.
Ever think of compiling your posts into an ebook? Best of MMM.
Just a thought.
It’s about the definition of marriage. Same sex couples have equal rights-that’s not a question. I stand with God in the defense of the sacredness of marriage, but we must exercise compassion and love for our brothers and sisters in same-sex relationships. This is sometimes forgotten in the fervor of righteousness.
I freaking love this. Thanks for being awesome.
Hear, hear! A few things I’ve been thinking:
1) If it doesn’t lead to the temple, it will ultimately be an enormous loss.
2) Children are “entitled” to both a mother and a father. It is the way it is done in heaven and it is the way we have been commanded to build families here on earth. “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
3) Gay marriage will make gay adoption and parenting even more prevalent, which will eventually mean millions more children not having a mother or a father, by design. I cannot say that a father or a mother is expendable. And not just having two caring adults to watch over a child is the sufficient. Men and women each bring unique attributes to the parenting table that compliment one another, therefore the ideal is for children to be raised by their own mother and father.
4) 100 years from now family history work will be stymied with ordinance work performed on behalf of deceased ancestors only being able to go as far as the endowment, in the case of same-sex couples.
5) Cohabiting heterosexual couples might listen to the missionaries and get married in order to get baptized. A cohabiting gay couple is very unlikely to listen to the missionaries. A married gay couple even less so. Get a divorce in order to get baptized? Sounds terrible!
Wow. Aweomely put.
That is an aspect I hadn’t even thought of – The Sealing power has to be done through the Priesthood. A woman can not be sealed to her children without first being sealed to a Priesthood holding man. This means that children of same-sex couples will not be sealed to anyone. This aspect in and of itself seems to be a great testimony of supporting ‘traditional’ marriage. It’s not so much an issue of ‘what will happen to a child in this life,’ as much as ‘what will become of them in the next?’
Thank you Sarah for your comment about the sealing power. I hear a lot of arguments for same-sex marriage where they say that these couples are adopting and taking care of children who would otherwise be in homes with single parents or worse even abusive parents. While I can see the logic they follow and how in some cases that may be true, what happens to them in the eternal realm? Obviously the majority of people in the world do not understand these principles, though, so it makes it difficult to come up with a rebuttal to their arguments that will make sense to them. However, like the author of this post says, that still shouldn’t stop us from standing up for God’s laws (both of marriage between a man and a woman as well as loving one another).
Very well put
Thank you! I was hoping you would do a post about this after I had read a few (craft!) blogs from members of the church who voiced their support on the issue. Left me feeling very sad, and admittedly confused.
Thank you for having the courage to speak up.
Love your point about sustaining our prophets in a few weeks.
Loved how you summarized why it is either one way or the other….and you are so right about the “interview”. One cannot really answer those questions in the affirmative if they do not support the prophet in this matter. Thanks!
It reminds me of a dark day in the legislature of a midwestern state, when back some time ago, they seriously considered making PI legally 3.2, because 3.1415…was too difficult. They had the wrong side of the dog. They thought they were in control–when they just looked stupid. They can say gay marriage is normal all they want…but it isn’t. You nailed it.
I agree with every point you make. I also know that God has an opinion on how we treat each other; He believes we should love our neighbors and not be a jerk. Sounds like you nailed Christianity on both these issues.
Amen Brother MMM.
Agreed, it is not marriage if it is not between a man and a women. I just wish both sides could stop fighting. Why does religion get to suppress the ability of the government to give the same secular/worldly “benefits” of married people to any type of cohabitation. Why do those that CHOOSE a homosexual life style have to have there choices validated by government by changing the definition of marriage. Why do those that believe in free agency work so hard to prevent others from making those bad choices. Both sides of this can get what they want without compromising on beliefs.The benefits the government gives can be given without having to have it called marriage. Religion would be protected and wouldn’t be compromised because under the law marriage is still between a man and a women. Homosexuals would have the “rights” they feel they are owed. As I see it this approach is much like Joshua’s (Joshua 24:15 “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye shall serve….but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”) We know what we should do and tell others what the right choice is but do allow others to make their choice.
Elijah, I agree with you that these couples should be given all the rights that married couples are. I think you are missing the biggest point though. Satan wants to destroy God’s plan and the family is central to that plan. And so he works through people to push to redefine marriage, knowing that it will hurt the family. Most people think this is about rights, but at its core, I believe it is a few truly evil people trying to destroy the family
We were still living in California during the 2008 election, which included Proposition 8. Not only did the Church declare support, but the brethren repeatedly instructed us to get involved, and even suggested specific amounts of time to contribute and held a couple of instructional meetings via satellite to inform members exactly how to get involved. It was hard. Even though we did end up winning, it certainly didn’t feel like we were popular. We were in the great, rural central valley of California, though, and had it relatively easy–friends in southern Cal and the Bay Area dealt with quite a bit of vandalism, harassment and threats. Several bishops up north got a response from many members that was, essentially, “I believe that these men are prophets and apostles, but I just don’t agree with them on this issue.” That was by far the most discouraging.
But I have to say that, during that campaign, I had some of the most wonderful spiritual experiences and insights of my life. Making phone calls, knocking on doors, asking for support when you know about half the people you talk to will disagree with you, and about half of those will be quite angry (pregnant with two small children in tow, no less), you really have to know that you’re standing on solid ground. And thanks to the comfort of the Holy Ghost, I’ve rarely felt more certain of that. There were times when I got confused or angry responses when the Spirit told me to simply be quiet and walk away. But there were times, especially in confrontations with loved ones or coworkers, where the Lord gave us (my husband and I) the words to say, and helped us to say them with love. I don’t know that we changed any minds, but with the Spirit’s help, I do believe we prevented a few doors from being slammed shut.
Thanks for so clearly outlining “the bottom line” so to speak.
This reply is as valuable to me as the blog post. Thank you, Rebecca.
You are most welcome, Laureen!
STAND…….and be not moved.
Here, here. But I do have to say that I am very grateful there are people in our society willing to stand up and be publicly counted in trying to defend the laws and traditions of our nation. This isn’t a national battle…it is happening all over the world in almost every country. It isn’t something that doesn’t affect us. It will affect us for generations and generations. We have a responsibility not just to stand on the sides with the prophets, but to publicly support and defend that side as well. Thanks for your thoughts! I really appreciate them.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into words that I couldn’t do. I am signing of FB until this whole thing blows over because I don’t want to get in the middle.
Very well said, my friend.
There is only one way, God’s Way!!! and gay marriage is not God’s Way, and you are right, we must still love all people no matter what, just don’t have to love what they do. Thank you for standing strong and helping us to remember God’s Way.
and that it is! Amen…and that is what Jesus Christ teaches all people whether they want to follow or not.
Thank You! Thank you for putting into words the thoughts and feelings I could not.
I guess it really is as simple as that.
Amen.
Thank you so much! This expresses how I feel in words I could not put together myself.
Thank You!
You know those really ugly shoes that came out years ago. Like these: http://www.etsy.com/listing/38078320/vintage-bass-rubber-and-leather-duck
They were super expensive and every girl in my fourth grade class owned a pair. I couldn’t, for the life of me, figure out WHY anyone in their right mind would want a pair. I mean, seriously, UGHLY!
As time went on, though, and more and more people owned them, they started to look a little bit more appealing to me. Every so often, I’d have to slap myself in the face to remind myself that no, these were the dumbest looking shoes EVER. I would NEVER buy in.
Forgive me for relating this current topic to ugly shoes, but somehow, it ties the issue together in my mind to this quote (one my dad often used while we were growing up) by Alexander Pope:
“Vice is a monster of so frightful mien
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.”
Does this seems to be where our society is headed?
It’s the same thing with TOMS. I used to think they were the weirdest thing ever. Now I own two pairs…
I was trying to remember this poem, couplet, whatever it is – from Alexander Pope, last night… thanks for sharing it here… I wanted to use it as a response to MAMM’s FB post last night…
Julie,
Years after the church extended the priesthood to blacks, and even began to tolerate interracial marriage, it seemed like every ward had a few old-timers who were still racist and could not abide the change in views. They remembered everything the old prophets and apostles had said before. Like the author of this post, they “knew” God had an opinion about racial equality and integration: he opposed it. To them, racial equality was the ugly pair of shoes they were determined NEVER to buy into.
It’s easy to see what will happen. We think we know God’s opinion on marriage equality now, but all it will take is a future generation of prophets saying the opposite, and everything we’ve heard up until now will be swept under the rug as the opinion of men. Monson on Prop 8 will go the way of Benson on the civil rights movement. Plausible deniability is built right in.
But I have no doubt there will be members like yourself in every ward who refuse to buy in to the trendy new views, who will always remember what was once taught and regard it as the “real” truth rather than the current, more progressive PC views.
Instead of a few holdover racists, every ward will have a few holdover homophobes.
Ishmael. If future generations of prophets change their views, then we will deal with it when it happens. (And you are right about the holdover racists)
Obviously you don’t consider my “knowledge” of prophets to be legitimate. So, without that baseline, there is really very little to discuss.
Except that having a different skin color was never against the gospel-homosexual relations have always been, and always will be. They go against the eternal plan, with no way to propagate it. No comparison.
Bravo for saying this.
Though I can see several distinct differences between gay marriage and extending the rights of the priesthood to all worthy males, let’s just say for arguments sake that you’re right and that in future generations, the Churches stance on homosexual marriages change. That still doesn’t change what is being said NOW and what members of Gods church are asked to support and defend NOW. Don’t make the mistake of thinking you’re smarter or ‘more advanced’ than Gods Prophets and they’ll someday catch up to you. What is being asked NOW is obedience to the truths that we have NOW. You start trying to get too far ahead and before you know it, you’ve cut yourself off.
Ishmael, you should probably read this article: http://www.sixteensmallstones.org/watchmen-on-the-tower-on-the-limits-of-prophetic-fallibility/
There are problems following what you expect the future prophets to teach. You’re not being asked whether or not you sustain them, you are asked whether or not you sustain the prophets now.
The church’s stance on gay marriage will never change because it is a fundamental doctrine to our religion. It is a a natural law, and natural laws are not subject to opinion polls. The African American’s receiving the priesthood was not based off a natural law. It was based off of a temporary rule. Temporary rules, programs, etc. are subject to change.
Ishmael, I just to applaud you for making an argument that was not contentious. It’s a refreshing read regarding heated topics.
Thank you! That was beautiful. I needed that so much this week. It’s funny… the story about the ten virgins… it’s about MEMBERS of the church, not the world. Half of the ‘followers’ of Christ supposedly will be unprepared at his coming. I hope and pray that won’t be me.
Good call, Rachel – I don’t agree with his viewpoint, but his diplomacy helps me appreciate it just the same =)
It will never change at least because an eternally-sealed homosexual couple could not procreate, and therefore could never become like God.
Julie… Your words make so much sense… THANKS for SHARING! There is a promise to this great land, and I am sad to see that we as a society has chosen to do wicked, to embrace evil, and to call good bad. That promise in the Book of Mormon is real, and I pray for our nation…. I hope that we repent SOON… before it is too late!
Great comparison! And seriously people? Isn’t it PC currently to expel God from everything? So glad I’m NOT PC about this and many other topics!
I agree with Moroni. We are not asked to follow what we believe our prophets will say in the future, we are asked to follow what they say for now. Heavenly Father is guiding them presently in how to direct us, and that is why we follow their current counsel.
Just remember the Church is not against people who have same sex attraction, having feelings is not a sin. The Church is against same sex marriage. It is a morality issue and a stand to uphold the family.
Perfectly worded. Thank you!
Well done.
HERE HERE!!!!
Thank you.
This is awesome! Exactly how I feel too, I just couldn’t find the right words to say it like you did. Thank you for being a voice for right for so many!
This is exactly how I feel and and what I believe too. I get a lot of criticism from others about this, as we all most certainly do when we don’t conform to modern society’s rules of what is politically correct. Even other members give me a hard time on occasion, and I have a hard time saying this just right when I try to explain it (especially when enduring all of their accusations of hatred whenever we disagree). Thank you for putting the thoughts of so many of us into words, expressing it so well, and sharing it with us. I am sharing this.