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| The Susquehanna RIver – Near Harmony, PA |
WARNING: YOU ARE ENTERING A SPECULATION ZONE
The following post is not doctrinal. Nor has it been approved by anyone of any standing in the LDS faith. It is merely some ramblings from me, and some of you, regarding a question that is not very important.
How do I know that it is not important? If it were, it would have been discussed by someone with some authority, and delivered somewhere else.
One good thing is that it got me to spend some time thinking about things other than the NFL and food.
Yesterday’s post “On Hallowed Ground: A Question” I asked for information, quotes, and experiences – rather than opinions – regarding this question:
When we are on hallowed ground, do we feel the Holy Ghost more strongly because the Spirit dwells in that specific place, or because our hearts are more prepared to feel him because we know we are on hallowed ground?
The result was mostly opinions, and we did poorly with the facts. There were a few scriptures, and some very interesting experiences. It seems that if there is a definitive answer to this question, none of us know where to find it.
It would seem that many believe that the answer to the question is “Both.” That the spiritual experiences that we feel at those sacred places are a combination of our preparedness, and something to do with the place itself. However, there seems to be many that feel that the location has little or nothing to do with it, and that it is purely a matter of personal spiritual communion that can happen anywhere.
Matthew Schuda gets a nod for a fascinating cellphone analogy. He said “I believe that the Spirit dwells everywhere and like cell reception it depends sometimes on the network (the place), it sometimes depends on the phone (the person and their ability or willingness to receive the connection) and occasionally there are dead zones where reception can not be made no matter what due to the lack of coverage (where evil resides).”
My favorite experiences shared yesterday were the ones where someone felt the stirrings that they were standing on “holy ground’ and didn’t expect it, or understand why. I think that’s fascinating – Whether it be a cathedral in St. Petersburg, on the bank of the Savannah River, or on Ellis Island. The reason was that I had been asking my EC and some of you, “If you were blindfolded and didn’t know where you were going, and I took you to a sacred site, do you think you would feel the Spirit without actually knowing where you were.”
I am also intrigued by the idea of “spiritual matter” that Bonnie brought up, because it makes so much sense, and can be supported by scripture. (D&C 131:7-8) Can a location be “transfigured” and maintain a spiritual presence?
My EC and I had some interesting conversations as comments came in, and I had some thoughts that are purely speculation that have been bouncing around my head. So, today feel free to toss your opinions into the ring – with the proper disclaimer – and I will too.
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The Concord Bridge
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When my wife and I went to Boston a couple of years back, we went to all the key historical sites. We love that kind of stuff. Then we drove out to Lexington-Concord and went out to the Concord Bridge where the “Shot heard ’round the world” was fired. We walked out across the bridge to the Minuteman monument and my wife turned to me and said, “I feel like we are on sacred ground.” I felt it too. We were surprised, because it wasn’t a religious site per se, and we hadn’t felt those stirrings at other historical attractions. But we both felt it.
When we were talking about this yesterday, my wife was showing her wisdom as she explained that she feels a different feeling when standing on holy ground, than she does when experiencing the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
I agree. There is a difference to me, as well. Sometimes, I have even felt both at the same time. The best example I can recall is when I went to the Sacred Grove. I immediately felt the sacredness of the site as I entered. It was powerful. But I felt the presence of the Holy Ghost later, as I sought a confirmation. I have felt the Holy Ghost many times, without feeling like I am on a scared site. I have also felt the sacredness of a site without a familiar feeling of the Holy Ghost.
When I sleep, sometimes my mind continues chewing on things like this. This morning, I woke up thinking about St. George, UT. Seriously. St. George? What does St. George have to do with this? Be patient, and it might make sense.
I found my copy of the book “Temples of the Most High.” It has lots of discussion from early Church theologians about spirits, and the Spirit World. In multiple passages, the prophet Brigham Young talks about how the disembodied spirits of the Gadianton Robbers (evil) live in and around the mountains of St. George. (I imagine during the winter they hang out in Colin’s backyard.)
President Young also commented that the Spirit World is here among us, but we can’t see it. The evil spirits are all around us, trying to tempt us. The good spirits are hard at work trying to continue administering the Lord’s plan. They communicate, they associate in clans and societies, and they even have meetings. Meetings?
So…here is my leap in the form of three “maybes.”
Maybe when we enter a place that is “hallowed,” what we are sensing is not necessarily the Holy Ghost, but the presence of other spirits that are there with us. (Yes? No? Maybe?)
If I were a spirit, I would want to hang around with other good spirits in sacred places. If I were a soldier who died at Gettysburg, I might very well keep an eye on the place. If the Gadianton Robbers get to hang around St. George, maybe my clan will hang around temples where my ancestor’s work is being done.
Maybe, one reason consecrated places feel so good is that the evil spirits do not want – or can’t – reside there. Perhaps what we are feeling is the absence of the evil which normally surrounds us – making spiritual communion much easier. I figure that would apply to temples as well. If a priesthood blessing proclaims a building or sight consecrated, or holy, it seems like the Adversary would not be inclined make that their hangout.
Maybe the sense of the sacred we feel is a function of the ministration of angels, which is made available to us through the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood – through worthiness brought about through repentance, the sacrament, and the power of the Atonement.
There are my thoughts for today. I hadn’t thought of any of these things before this discussion, and for that, I thank you all. I enjoy digging in and learning. If you have a chance, get a copy of “Temples of the Most High.” It is a fascinating book.
Feel free to opine today!
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I served my mission in Poland, and while I was there I had many opportunities to visit really really old places, like cathedrals and castles and cemeteries and such, and they all had a certain feeling about them –a very dense feeling -if that makes any sense. Then there were some places that were just plain creepy.
However, on the grounds that the Church owns in Warsaw, right next to the L.D.S chapel, where there will someday be a temple (at least that’s the plan), the feeling is light and airy and… clear -very reminiscent of the feeling I get in Temple, even though it’s not there yet.
As far as being on hallowed ground when it comes to historically significant places. I know what you’re talking about.
While on my mission, I got to visit the concentration camps of Auschwitz and Birkenau twice. It actually surprised me because I expected to feel such a deep sense of sadness and horror and pain, but I didn’t. The first time I went, it was a beautiful sunny day, there were birds singing in the trees and the flowers were blooming… and that overwhelming feeling didn’t come. I did feel sadness as we looked at the collections of belongings they had taken from the prisoners, and as I walked past the pictures of the people who had been held there. But otherwise I only felt that hallowed feeling. The second time I went was on a foggy day in the winter, and that was a little more fitting, but still it wasn’t as disturbing and oppressive as I expected it to be, and it almost made me feel heartless. I mean, when I see and hear about the atrocities that happened there, I am revolted and horrified almost to the point of being overwhelmed. However, when I was actually there, I didn’t feel that. I can’t explain it.
There is one place where the sense of being on hallowed ground is so amazingly strong. In Auschwitz, which has pretty much been turned into a museum with the different bunkhouses being dedicated to the different groups (mainly religions and countries) that had been affected by the holocaust, there is one building that is dedicated to The Underground –the people who risked their own lives to smuggle and hide and save countless others. The feeling of hope and the stories of courage against such great odds are enough to restore one’s faith in humanity …even after being surrounded by the undeniable evidence of the depths of inhumanity.
While there are so many overwhelmingly horrifying stories and such that come from the holocaust that I can’t allow myself to dwell on, and while not all of those kinds of sites are places that I would call hallowed (and indeed, I had other missionary companions visit other concentration camps and say the feelings there were very negative compared to Auschwitz), I think that that one bunkhouse –that shrine to true heroes, drew an amazing amount of holiness to it.
In the end, I left with a deep sense of gratitude, for my life and for all I’ve been blessed with. It put things into greater perspective. The stories of survival and faith of so many prisoners who lived through it gave me hope and fortitude to carry on and I also left with a greater resolve to follow the example of courage and selflessness and love that those heroes of The Underground had personified.
In the end, it was a very positive experience for me, and I would recommend it to anyone who has an opportunity to go.
I’m a little late to this conversation, I know, but I wanted to add my two bits. I’m not going to delve into speculation myself, but your “maybes” definitely resonate.
I actually have a few things, but it won’t all fit on one comment.
Firstly, and this is hearsay, I had a HS Russian teacher (this was Utah by the way, and she was a newly returned missionary) who had told us how in part of the St. Petersburg mission shortly after the city was opened to missionaries, work was really not going anywhere and everything was going wrong for the missionaries there. When a visiting general authority came, he was walking down the street and stopped next to this very nondescript dilapidated building and asked what the building was. The missionaries didn’t know, but the general authority felt that the place needed to blessed (as in evil spirits cast out) and that the city be rededicated for missionary work. So they did. Afterward, the missionary work immediately picked up. Interestingly enough, it turns out that the building he stopped by was where Rasputin had lived.
(Would that be the opposite of hallowed ground?)
I had a scary experience when we went to the Sacred Grove some years back. As I walked along picturing the young Joseph Smith kneeling in sincere prayer and his amazing vision of The Father and His Son, I felt…nothing different that I felt in the car on the way. I wandered off by myself and said a prayer in my mind, took a few deep breaths, focused on how amazing it was that I could be there, etc. I still didn’t feel the way I was supposed to. I started to get a bit panicky – wasn’t I worthy enough to feel the amazing Spirit here in this special spot?
A few more silent prayers later, I got my answer, “You already know.”
I guess it was kind of an Oliver Cowdery moment. A reminder of what I felt when I learned about, prayed about, and was converted to at age 17.
“…if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things. Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?”
I’m grateful for the Holy Ghost who continues to teach me!
My late husband maintained that “sacred ground” was often “being where you were supposed to be when you were supposed to be there.” In this way, we can feel that “special place” spirit just about anywhere, as long as we are doing what we oughta be doing.
When I was a rebellious teenager, my parents dragged me off on a church history tour with our ward young adults program. I’m sure they were thinking that I would feel the overwhelming spirit in these places and reconsider my rebellion. Quite the opposite happened. The tangible spirit in those places made me feel very uncomfortable, as I was working so hard to block light and had allowed a startling amount of darkness into me. It felt like flipped magnets being forced together. I kept finding ways to sneak off to smoke rather than feel that discord.
I strongly believe that the term “light” as used in the scriptures, is more than just a literary description. It is a substance, albeit one we can not see with our mortal eyes. I believe this substance can leave a residue in places, as in the Sacred Grove, and those who have this similar substance (light) inside, will resonate when they enter such a place.
“And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;” (D&C 93:2)
“He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:28-29)
“And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy…The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.” (D&C 93:32,33,36)
And this is my favorite scripture of all time, “And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things. Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you,” (D&C 88:67-68)
I also believe the reverse to be true: that corruption is an actual substance. It can push the light out of us if we allow, and conversely, when we worthily take the Sacrament, that light pushes out the darkness.
Pres. David O. McKay said, “Every man, every person radiates what he or she is. Every person is a recipient of radiation. The Savior was conscious of that.”
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-david-o-mckay/chapter-24?lang=eng
What he is talking about is energy, light, glory. I know in the mainstream of the church, many people are wary of the word energy, fearful that this is dipping into woo-woo, new-age stuff. I love this Ensign April 1971 talk by Bro. Kent Nielsen that says no one on earth should know more, or talk more, about science fiction, space travel, voices from beyond, than latter-day saints!
https://www.lds.org/new-era/1971/04/people-on-other-worlds?lang=eng
Anyway, sorry – this is too long. But there’s tons of material, quotes from prophets and scriptures to back this stuff up. In answer to the current question, I stand with the group that says: Both. We feel a unique spirit because of the light/energy in a certain place that resonates with the light/energy inside of us.
Whew! Enough heavy thinking – I’m off to get a diet coke!
Love ya MMM
As much as I love when you cite doctrine complete with references, I also enjoy when you opine.
Much to chew on, especially with everyone’s comments. We had a similar discussion in YW yesterday as the girls had asked for a lesson on how to know their Heavenly Father better. One little Miamaid testified about “standing in holy places” as part of our discussion and her experience of it being whereever she felt the Spirit. The room was silent as every single girl and leader felt what she was feeling, gained a testimony from the Spirit, and shared that classroom which for that moment (or three) was hallowed ground.
By the same token, when I am on base at Camp Pendleton and surrounded by servicemen and women, I always feel the Spirit. It could be in the MCX, the McDonalds on base, or even running a race in their foothills. Spirit is the same.
Classroom
Temple
Cabin
Car
McDonalds
I firmly believe that one is allowed to feel the Spirit and “be in a holy place” whereever/whenever they are worthy to.
On another semi-related note, I recently read an article regarding current theories about the universe. Physicists currently believe that about 95% of the matter and energy in the universe is “dark” — something that exists but the nature of which is completely unknown, which is invisible and undetectable by any currently known method, except that it seems to interact with gravity. The concept of “spirit matter” isn’t that far off.
Fascinating topic. I have no light or speculation to add, really, but I won’t let that stop me from commenting. 🙂
I like the idea of testability — could somebody detect whether a place was more “hallowed” than elsewhere if they didn’t know where you were, e.g. if they were blindfolded?
I suspect the answer is “yes,” given some of the anecdotes in your posting and the comments. I’ve seen and heard second-hand similar reactions of people attending church for the first time, or going through a temple open house. A friend of mine said recently after going through the Boise Temple open house that there was something different about the Celestial Room — she suggested that maybe it was something about the HVAC that there was a different feeling in the air. 🙂
As a musician I have often felt the spirit when I was performing onstage, especially since I had the opportunity to perform in some sacred music tours from BYU-I and in Savior of the World. But even classical pieces have moved me and I have felt the spirit as I utilized the talents God has given me.
I also very much agree with your “maybes.” I believe that there are indeed good and evil spirits working for and against us, and I think it is reasonable to conclude that evil spirits cannot walk on hallowed or dedicated ground.
It’s probably impossible to separate the two, your personal preparation and desire or faith from the sacred place and space but foremost in my mind in this discussion is the testimony of the people who lived and experienced the sacred events. When you visit sacred places it feels like they are there -such as in Nauvoo it feels like the people could be walking the streets with you and that feeling is intensified at specific locations. Not that the area is haunted but that at places where important events took place you can feel the strength of the event like the Earth feels it, we feel it, and angels are there witnessing it too, whether we recognize their presence or not. We know angels are among us and we don’t really have a lot of information or ways of knowing what it’s like on the other side but I don’t doubt they are part of this discussion.
Paige
I like the thought, fact, whatever. .. that ‘standing in Holy Places’ can be just about anywhere. Historical places do it to me. The National Cathedral I was in two weeks ago did it to me. Sometimes if I’m lucky, Sacrament Meeting will do it. Yesterday was one of those days. It can be up at the cabin listening to the silence. That’s where I KNOW that God is real. I could list hundreds of spots. But the square in this comment place isn’t that big. 🙂
I love your reference to ‘standing in Holy Places’ as it is the theme this year for the youth. I’ve been thinking about that a lot and I do believe that places are Holy but that a big part of it is in us. We can stand in holy places where ever we are if we strive to keep the spirit with us and to do what is right.
Sorry, I know it may be a little off topic but that’s what I’ve been thinking of lately.
While I heartily nod my agreement to your maybes, I want to add one thing. It makes sense to me that sacrifice and blood spilled in sacrifice for a noble or holy purpose can make a place hallowed. If the earth itself has a spirit, couldn’t the earth remember and bear witness?
tonya, your comment makes me think of all the scriptures in the Book of Mormon that refer to “the blood of the saints [ascending] up to God from the ground” (see 2 Nephi 26:3). It certainly gives me new perspective on those verses!
MMM, I love your maybes — especially I like the idea of #2.
At the end of August this past year our family was rocked when my #2 son’s best friend committed suicide. We walked out of church and my son (who attended a singles ward at a different time) met us, sobbing, to tell us. We stood there in a huddle and sobbed and tried to come to terms. He left to go to another friend’s house where everyone was gathering, and my #3 son and I turned to walk home. As we walked in stunned silence, I prayed to have peace and to know how to lead my family to peace. I had an experience on that walk home in which I learned, unequivocally, that no person is ever left alone – that angels attend everyone at every time that it is important for them to be attended. Since that time I’ve had reason to reflect many times on experiences when comfort or assurance or guidance or protection seemed to come from an interested other source. I have no question in my mind that the work on earth continues to be the focus of heaven, with legions of angels involved. It only stands to reason that there will be places where they congregate, where they are on more hallowed ground.
President Young taught that the spirit world “Is on this earth.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 376.)
President Benson taught that “the spirit world is not far away. Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin. Our loved ones who have passed on are not far from us.” (Ensign, June 1971, p. 33.)
I’ve had that experience. If there is a home and visiting teaching program designed to have multiple layers of people watching out for us here on earth, I would imagine they have meetings. For heaven’s sake, if anything is eternal, it’s meetings.
Its funny you brought up my hometown. I went driving in a particular area of stg late at night and my little brother said we’re in Kayenta turn around! I did and he proceeded to tell me about the Gadianton robber situation. He’d always felt unease on that side of town which i thought was interesting! I’d never heard that before but temples bring me a strong belief in the closeness of the spirit world to ours. I think sometimes maybe the amount of spiritual experience we have in PLACES specifically has to do with the amount of time spirits spend there. This one is way contrived but it would make sense to me that sprouts can be with spirit missionaries tracing gospel steps that were taken on the earth. Just as i feel they can witness their own proxy work being done. I wonder of that means sometimes the unexpected moments of spiritual witness are us brushing closer to spirits on the other side who happen to be near to us, that we are otherwise unaware of.
read this scripture today and thought of your question. Moses 1:42 (These words were spoken unto Moses in the mount, the name of which shall not be known among the children of men. And now they are spoken unto you. Show them not unto any except them that believe. Even so. Amen.)
We can’t even know the names of places where the Savior was! So, ya. Places are a part of it!
My kids and I hiked before sunrise to Delicate Arch and were the only ones there for quite a while. I was surprised at the sacred feeling I felt there. Even more surprised when my non-LDS dentist in North Carolina described Delicate Arch as “a special place.”
For me… sitting in a car in the parking lot at the Sacred Grove, hearing sweet birds singing and knowing bees were probably humming in there, too… being in the Manti Temple as a worker, in the morning before it opened, and feeling the sense of anticipation for what would go on there that day… the sense of homecoming when I passed into the celestial room in the Salt Lake Temple my first time, and the repetition of that experience on subsequent visits to other temples as well… when as a writer I feel pure inspiration flowing in and the best manifestation of my talent flowing out into the keyboard or onto the paper… reading my patriarchal blessing… and some private moments with those I love most, moments that are too sacred to discuss with anybody else. All are telling me “I’m here, I’m listening, and I meant what I said when we made those promises.” Incomparable.
I certainly wouldn’t discount the presence of those from the spirit world in hallowed places. HOwever, I highly doubt that the likes of the prophet Joseph Smith have time to hang around Liberty jail all the time. But there is definitely a spirit there. I guess that speaks to the awesome ability of the Spirit to touch us in all that we do.
As I read this post, I remembered that I have felt the spirit in places such as the national cemetery. It really felt like sacred ground. It wasn’t a religious site, persay, but it certainly did feel hallowed. But like the quote you wrote, I do think it’s all about our “tuning in” to the spirit that is available.
Doesn’t mean that spiritual missionaries can’t be taking spiritual investigators on tours of historical sites!
Definitely what I was thinking.
I like your third point best. A very short time before my fairly healthy but quite aged grandmother died, she sent me to her basement to rummage around for something she needed. As I went down the stairs, I suddenly felt (knew!!) her basement rec room was filled with spiritual beings and that they were her family and friends, readying to minister to a wonderful woman in her final days with her mortal body. I felt so privileged to have been granted that very comforting knowledge.
I think I agree with you. Now that I have had time to think about it and read this post, I can think of some specific examples. Like when my husband and I went to London. Westminster Abbey was quite a mix of feelings and I couldn’t really figure out why. One moment it felt special and important, the next it felt cold and harsh. The Tower of London, where many poeple were famously killed, felt mostly sad but also very…creepy? I have also visited places that had a signifiacnt history but I didn’t really feel anything special, or at least not what I expected to feel.
I have also had many experiences like this with people. I have always thought of it as the gift of discerning of spirits. If you think about it, that means that one spirit recognizes another in some way, as good or evil. It makes sense that we would also be able to recognize those spirits after they pass on to the Spirirt World.
It’s interesting to me that you brought up Gettysburg. I had the opportunity to visit there and was overwhelmed by the knowledge that it was holy ground, even though it wasn’t a religiously significant site. I have also stood in the upper room at Carthage Jail and felt the same thing. I don’t have anything to add to the discussion except for to say, I think the important thing is that regardless of why we feel these things, that we remain sensitive to them when they come.
Maybe evil spirits CAN’T hang out on Holy ground. Maybe its like the Holy Ghost won’t stay in an unclean body, maybe they can’t stand a Holy place.
I always love your perspective and insights. I’m glad to see my posed question is very similar to your first maybe. I like the way you worded it. I wouldn’t doubt you’re at least close on your maybe’s. Thanks for giving me something to think about for the past 24 hours.
Your three maybes are right on!