I’m cliquish.
There. I said it. I would like to say that I’m not, but I am. This post is not an attempt to justify it, but rather, an attempt to understand this shortcoming better, and solicit thoughts from my wise and attractive readers as to how I can solve it -It is also not a discussion of cliquishness within the church – so put on your thinking caps…
Back in High School, I learned an important lesson. Depending on the school, or the timing, sometimes I was in a clique, other times I was on the outside looking in. The lesson I learned is this:
That is the sad truth. Once in a while we step back and notice, but usually we are too busy enjoying our lives inside the clique to actually see it for what it is: Exclusive, rather than inclusive.
So I looked up the word “clique” on LDS.org to see what the brethren have said about it in conference talks. Imagine my surprise to find that the word “clique” has never been used in a General Conference talk. So I widened my search, and found a wonderful discussion about “Why Mormons are so cliquish”… on… a Catholic website. And a Christian blog. And an ex/anti-Mormon blog.
Apparently there are plenty of people on the outside that easily recognize the cliquishness.
A few years ago, I was participating took part in a Relief Society class and asked the following some questions to look at our lives from the outside. (So these were directed at the sisters – brethren can insert their own similar questions.) Be warned: I am using the term “non-member”.)
I asked:
• The last time you went to lunch with friends, how many non-members were included?
• What is the ratio of LDS to Non-LDS kids in your car pool?
• When is the last time you double-dated with a non-member couple?
• What percentage of the telephone numbers on your phone belong to LDS people?
• When was the last time you took dinner, or a plate of cookies, to someone who was not a member of the Church?
• Who was the last person that you did service for who was not a member of your ward or family?
• When was the last time you invited a non-member to church?
• Have you ever gone camping or on vacation with members of a different religion?
• When was the last time you invited a non-member family to dinner?
…You get the point. Sure, I can ask the questions – but I can also fail the quiz. Spectacularly.
That is the problem – I recognize that I am cliquish. And remarkably so. And I shouldn’t be. I also should point out that the smaller the LDS population density is where you live, the better you probably did on the quiz.
I asked my EC the other day the question I heard that prompted this: “Why are Mormons so cliquish.” She instantly admitted it was true, then rattled off a list of reasons why. And they were all real reasons. I have added a few of my own. If you are not a member of the LDS church, and you wonder why we are cliquish, here’s a few ideas. I am not claiming the are correct reasons, but they are real. When I speak as “we”, I am speaking of my EC and me – not my readers – I’m sure you are beyond this in your lives.
1) We hang around with the people we hang around with in the natural course of church activity. There are weeks where we are involved with these same members of the church 3-4-5 days a week. Add in Monday night, and we have precious little time – or desire – to expand our social lives.
2) I really like the people in my ward. The people I worship and serve with are my friends, and I enjoy their company. We share common beliefs, goals, schedules, and attitudes towards many things. I am comfortable around them because they reenforce the things that I am about. For example: If I have an extra ticket to a game, and I can choose to take Dean from my ward, or my non-member neighbor, it is easy for me to choose: Dean. I don’t have to worry about who is going to drive, and what Dean will talk about after he has had a few too many beers. It is more comfortable.
3) We are trying to raise our children with certain standards. When my son spends a Saturday playing with a neighbor who only wants to play M-rated video games, and says OMG every thirty seconds, it makes it a lot easy to send him off to play with his LDS friends. (Man, even I can’t believe how snobbish I sound!)
4) Our neighbors have been warned about the Mormons. True story: FOML4 and FOML5 are natural missionaries and friendly kids. They succeeded in bringing four of their friends into our ward’s Cub Scout pack. After while, they all dropped out. Later, we find out that the pastor at the church they belong to specifically counseled them to not let their kids participate in things like Scouting in the Mormon units, because they might pull you in. How much time do I want to invest in a relationship that is built on paranoia? (Deserved or not!) But the parents of these ex-Cubs are really, really nice, friendly people.
5) We are not only “cliquish”, we are “clannish” as well. I want my kids to marry one of us. I desire that the FOMLs marry within the faith, and have numerous offspring – all raised in the faith. That is far beyond a “clique”. I don’t even want my teenagers to have girlfriends – let alone a non-member girlfriend – even if her standards are HIGHER than my son’s. But this is tough, because even lots of people inside the Church don’t understand this. (Read about it here.)
I told you I was cliquish, and a bit snobbish, and now I’ve shared with you why. But it kind of makes sense, doesn’t it? Am I alone, or does anyone else fail this test with me?
The problem is that we are supposed to be in the world, befriending and serving others, and sharing our testimonies. That gets hard to do when we are so busy in our Mormon-centric lifestyles. For some of us, the majority of our lives roll on with few opportunities to make really close friends with people outside the church. Even friendships built within the church can fade as quickly as a boundary is redrawn.
In our experience, most of our non-member friends are people we meet through our kids. We’ve met some really great people through our kid’s youth sports teams, school activities and such functions. To further that type of association, I imagine that I could join some type of a group like Rotary, but I would know that I was doing it to assuage my guilt for not being a better missionary.
Guilt? Yes there is guilt there. I was a good missionary in the field, and have been a good missionary when assigned, but my flashes of missionary-ness are less frequent than they should be. Sure, I have baptized coworkers and friends, but not lately. But I know better. My efforts do not align with my knowledge.
I know the essential nature of missionary work.
I know God wants me to do more.
I know that the church I belong to is wonderful, and would bless the lives of anyone and everyone.
Maybe I don’t love people as much as I should, or it would spring more naturally. (Enos 1:11)
I shouldn’t need to be assigned to “Love my Neighbor.”
How do we get out, and get busy?
How do we get past our comfortable, friendly world and extend our cliques to include others?
How do we do it without it feeling like a task?
How do we increase our love for others so this desire to share flows naturally?
Please share your thoughts, and you don’t need to call me a snob – ’cause I already did!
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I noticed this just this past Sunday when another Christian church invited us to participate in a service project with them. I couldn’t remember one time we had asked another church to join with us to do something like that. My little brother is on a mission and it has brought missionary work to the forefront of my thoughts. I really want to reach out and not be clique-ish. I am always impressed by those who are such good people, even without God’s true gospel.
After moving away from my comfort zone in UT County to an area far less populated with members, I’ve tried to find ways to reach out to those that aren’t members and spread the gospel but It’s harder than I thought. Like you said, our paths just don’t cross that often. And, in my case, when they do cross I’m usually in a hurry to get my one year old out of their cloud of cigarette smoke.
Personally I’m adapting to not having any kids at home as they’ve both married and live out west as of a year ago. I came into the church at 15 alone. I hung in there but remember holding onto my 3 year old niece for dear life one Sunday she came with me when the Bishop told everyone to sit with their own families. Most Sundays I sat in the back with my 2 new friends from different towns. The kids from several different small towns in IL had all grown up together and had a deep bond but, thankfully, 2 girls friended me. One of these “friends” has since given me the cold shoulder for years at a time. I have been a member of at least 25 wards; college, singles and military. I stayed active when my husband wasn’t because I knew I had a responsibility to teach my children. Right now my husband “gigs” at a Baptist church for $ during our ward meetings so we try to go to the later ward Sacrament. This sounds so dumb saying it out loud but 1 woman in our ward (her husband is in the BIshopric now) refused to friend me on FB which hurt my feelings at one time cause she “only friends people she really knows.” I tried to be friendly to no avail. I’m over that but feel awkward around her. Another sister was recently mad at me because I took up for young mothers with loud children when she griping about them during a visit (teaching). For some reason those were the people who stood out to me one of the last times I went to our ward. This is MY problem – I fully recognize that – but neither of these sisters realize they are impacting me when I am already struggling. My mom is dying. My Baptist sister and I are close again after years. We went to different churches together since I was 3. But I also have a cousin who just unfriended me for the 3rd time on FB after I made an LDS comment. It feels like my efforts to reach out have been shot down. I need to blow things off and just focus on being strong but I’ve also been sick and just feel “low” in spirit and body. I have permanent health issues which have been a source of great difficulty. BECAUSE of these issues, though, I am very aware of what it feels like to be on the outside looking in because it has been my position for decades. I tend to gravitate to those who need someone but sometimes they aren’t even receptive. Not sure why I’m saying all this but it has been therapeutic to get it out, lol. How we treat others whether it is with indifference, pettiness, insensitivity or not even seeing them (ignoring) DOES matter. But small kindnesses go a long way, too! Just sitting by someone can determine whether they come back. We have much greater power than we may realize. It all matters…. It’s just like the example thing. We are one no matter what whether good, bad or just “eh”.
I love reading your posts! You bring a very down to earth perspective to things. Thank you MAMM!
One little thing that has struck me is our ability to reach out as members. I don’t know how many times I have heard the question, “Does anyone know of any members that are in need?” When it comes to service, many members seem to be focused only on those who are a part of the church. I think it is important that we not overlook the many other opportunities that are out there. I realize that there is a desire to take care of those who are closest to us and we need to take care of our own, but oft times we are missing some very valuable opportunities for friendship and missionary work. Nothing makes a greater impact on someone than service.
I highly recommend reading CS Lewis’ article entitled The Inner Circle. He discusses why and how cliques are formed and gives some suggestions on obtaining a healthier view. Here is a link so you can read it online:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17924&forum=34&1
if it doesn’t work as a link, just highlight and copy the address and put it in your address bar. then hit enter.
I’ve loved reading all the perspectives on this subject. Having lived a lot of my life in Utah, and now again out of Utah, I can see this topic from both sides. You’ve given me some food for thought. ~MCM.
I must either be naive or (hopefully) doing something right. I remember in high school eating lunch with my friends. Afterwards, they head outside to sneak in a smoke and I’d head over to the seminary building to hang out before the class started. The never asked if I wanted to come, because they knew I wasn’t interested. We lost track of each other over the years, but have reconnected over facebook and I even attended her wedding. She has not been active since like 10 years old.
Now that I am older I was talking with my mom about that situation. She told me that even though I would come home smelling like smoke (at that age (12) just her parents smoked then), she wasn’t going to discourage me from being friends. She was my friend since I was 10 and my mother told me she let us pick our friends and she wasn’t stopping our friendship because of her parents. I was very impressed by my mom and am trying my best now as a parent to open minded the way my mother was.
I see what you’re saying, and I’ve thought a lot about this post, but I have a different perspective.
My husband doesn’t have a lot of friends, and the people he hangs out with are not members of the Church. I feel that he needs to make more of an effort with members, but he is a naturally introverted person and it’s easier for him to form bonds with people at work because he’s already interacting with them for most of the day. For example, tonight he’s off out to see a movie with some guys from work, on a night when a lot of men in our ward get together to play sports. I would much prefer him to be playing sports and inviting colleagues to that, but I’m not his mom and I can’t boss him around and order him to make friends.
As for myself, my entire adult life I have lived in a foreign country. I pretty much constantly feel like an outsider; it goes with the territory. I have struggled for years to make friends with people, and it’s just easier for me to make friends with fellow church members. At least we have a common starting place! Also, I find that gospel-grounded friendships are incredibly valuable to me. To be able to share testimonies and basic beliefs without a short caveat or explanation is wonderful.
I am friendly to all I come into contact with (I try, at least) and since we home educate in a country where less than 1% of the population do that, we chat with people all the time. I don’t feel cliquish at all, but I admit that it might look differently to the casual observer.
Thanks for making me think, MMM!
I’m a convert to the church and I’m married to a non-member. My husband’s family are extreme in their anti-Mormon sentiment and I’ve put up with a lot from them over the years, but that’s another post entirely. My husband goes to church with me (his own choice). We have moved three times and been a part of one ward split so 4 wards in three states and I can honestly say, I’ve never felt like an outsider in any of our wards. Our whole family has always been accepted and welcomed. I think, it’s all in the attitude. If you expect people to be put off by your situation, well… most times that’s exactly what happens. If, however, you love people and do your best to follow the spirit and serve, I think you end up happier in the end.
My husband once commented on the clickishness of our church, but actually came to the same conclusion MMM did about why we do it. And in the end all his friends are members. I guess it was a, can’t beat em’ join em thing for him:) My point is, if you live your life with an eternal perspective, all the rest falls into place.
I like the comments that focus on improvement. I think we all know that we can do better. I’m getting tired of the “Utah is the cause of all our problems” comments. There are good and bad examples everywhere. Bashing on people will never cause permanent improvement. The reason this is the only blog I follow is because it inspires me to do and be better. Thanks, MMM, for the reminder to reach out more.
Thank you for the kind comment.
I would like to re-affirm that Utah is not the cause of all our problems. I think Washington DC has earned the lion’s share of the title.
MMM is right, as usual. And Vatermann, I will resolve to not blame Utah for anything except an excuse for some of our daughters to try and wear immodest clothing because “all the member girls down there do it.”
I live in the Netherlands and purposely moved closer to the church building b/c most of the members live within a few km of the building. Since moving closer I do hang out almost exclusively with members… and I love it. Part of the reason is b/c member mothers are stay at home moms just like me. Most other moms that i meet work part time or they don’t make themselves available to hang out. There is one lady that I invite regularly to our monthly “moms with tots” group and she might take me up on it soon… so that would be cool b/c she’s a stay at home mom and I can see that she needs some friends… and besides she’s spanish speaking and we have like a ton of spanish speaking members (do I think about missionary moments? – you bet!)
Last Monday, My daughter and I witnessed a little boy get hit by a car. I teach First Aid and CPR so I stayed on the scene and took care of the little guy until paramedics showed up. This happened in front of his house so I knew where he lived. I made a mental note.
When paramedics got there and took over I went to the elderly woman who’d hit him. As you can imagine she was distraught. My daughter and I stayed with her while she filled out paperwork for the police, I let her cry on my shoulder and assured her that although the boy had a broken leg he’d be fine. The next day my daughter (who’s 13) said, for some reason I keep seeing part of that ladies address. I told her I could remember part of it also. Together we knew the street and some possibilities of the house number. We decided maybe it was Heavenly Father’s way of telling us we need to check on her. So we prayed about it Tuesday night to see if we could remember the full address. Sure enough both of us felt we knew it on Wednesday morning. I thought 2604, she thought 2406. We drove to the street and sure enough one of those addresses was on the street. We took her flowers and are heading back today to help her pack. She was in the middle of a move with no one to help her out.
Friday we took balloons to the little boy and suckers to him and his siblings. I met the parents (better) and have talked to the father since.
The more I’m trying to meet people and listen to the spirit, the Lord is sending me more ways to be less cliquish and more friendly (I’ll be okay if it isn’t in those type of conditions again though).
BTW, it hasn’t effected who my kids date and hang out with at all. And I don’t think it should. They’re learning that we hang out with kids who have our standards, we’re friendly and ready to help everyone no matter their standards or religion, and we only date those who are in our religion because as Spencer W. Kimball said, you marry who you date. Those are just rules and don’t have anything to do with cliques.
Those are my suggestions, because they seem to be working for me. Good luck! (Sorry it took the length of a novel to get it out)
I love this post. It’s something I’ve prayed a lot about over the past 6-7 months. I found myself uncomfortably on the inside of a clique. It became natural to hang out with the other ladies I’d been in the YW presidency with, even after we were released. Saving seats for each other, finding each other at church activities etc. But I hated it. Not the being with them part but knowing how it feels to be out of the clique too. I felt quite hypocritical and un-Christlike. But didn’t do anything about it for a while.
I’m the gospel doctrine teacher and was very excited to teach BofM this year. I felt REALLY strongly that as a class we needed to increase our testimony of it and then share it with our friends and neighbors. I went in all gung-ho, having full intent on sharing a BofM each month to be a great example. Then realized, I didn’t know anyone well enough out of the church to come near them with a BofM. I was quite ashamed of myself. In January I made it a goal to get to know more people out of the church, but to also include people who look like they needed a friend in the church.
I started out with being friendlier to my neighbors. The kids are already always here hanging out with my kids, so I made it a point to talk to their parents more often. The more I’ve prayed about it the easier it’s become. I’m now friends with people who I’d NEVER have thought I could be friends with- not because of who they are but because we speak different languages. I’ve given away 2 BofM’s since January and will be giving another one to a neighbor this week after the Spanish speaking missionaries help me translate my testimony. When I go to RS on Sundays I immediately find someone sitting alone- not one of my clique friends, and sit with her- THEN invite my friends to sit by us if there’s room. I then start asking questions, learning about the sister. I’ve also made it a point, once a week, to contact someone I don’t know very well and get to know them. It’s been uncomfortable but I really think it’s what Heavenly Father has wanted. And he’s helped me and the other sisters so far. Sometimes I tell them I’ve gone there as a prompting and it’s made it even better.
Also, I’ve asked around and when someone less active or that I don’t know very well has a need I have been trying to fill it, getting to know them at the same time.
I think you’re right. We are cliquish, and for all the reasons you list. I guess one of my concerns is if we expand our circle of friends for the sole purpose of missionary work, we’re really missing the boat. Elder Christensen has taught that we don’t need to “prepare” people to ask them if they want to know more. Friends who are “prepared” and then dropped after a negative response must feel awful.
That said, the cliques you describe could just as easily apply to other stand-out communities: expats in a foreign location, for instance, or military families living overseas on base, or even very active members of other churches. (One of my work mates spends as much of his time serving in his local parish as I do in our ward.)
My wife has a fair amount of non-LDS contact because she teaches piano to a number of families in our neighborhood. Since we live in the mid-west, our kids have always had friends outside the church as well as in.
HAH! Love this post! My biggest pet peeve is the cliques that exist IN ward families as well as the one you mentioned with LDS people in general.
I am as comfortable with my LDS ward family friends as I am my non Mormon friends. Why? Perhaps because I experienced a period in my life when I wasn’t active and know the hurt that comes from being excluded. Having no neighborhood kids allowed at your house to play with your kids. That type of thing. Not to mention the judgmental comments that somehow made it back to us “out of concern”.
When my husband I moved into this particular ward, we were LOVED back into the gospel by people who wanted to be our friends regardless. Who nurtured us into the neighborhood first. I vowed I would never be like the other members I had experienced. As I reviewed the questions you listed, I realized that while I have a fairly large and diverse group of friends that I associate with regularly, I can do better. I can see a neighbor right now, that will be getting a treat from mCat’s house. (thanks for the inspiration). Yes, I still want my boys to marry in our faith. Stay active and raise their children as we raised them, but just as my nonmember/gay/lesbian/alcohol/rec drug users/sabbath breaking friends and family have accepted me and my “oddness”, I have gratefully accepted them and all the diversity they bring to my life.
That being said, I now have some cookies to go buy and put on a plate (since I am no betty crocker) and run it over to some non member neighbors that I haven’t talked to in awhile, and make sure that they know I love them.
And then I will come home and repent and try to do better and including EVERYONE in my circle
Great post!
Ditto. To most everything. I know you said that this post wasn’t about cliques in the church, but the one thing that annoys the ever living life of out me is the, lets call it, the “Utah” clique. I grew up in the east, by NYC, and lived most of my adulthood in the midwest and now live int he south. The people from the west, (Utah, Idaho, Colorado, etc…) always form cliques and exclude members of their ward that didn’t grow up by the mountains or that live for BYU football.
Did you hear that? That was me tripping off my soap box and hitting my head. Sorry. 🙂
One more thing that I tell my older children, You don’t have to be friends with everyone, but you do need to be friendly.
I like that one, Heather. It kind of goes along with what my mom told me about boys: “If a boy asks you to dance at a dance, you always say yes (but you don’t have to say yes to a second dance). But you don’t have to say yes to a date, as long as you turn him down nicely.” She told me this because she said yes to a date with a guy (in order to be nice) and he ended up stalking her for 5 months. There is definitely a difference between being buddy-buddy and just being a nice person. We should ALL be nice.
I am cliqueish like you, MMM, for the same reasons. That being said, however, I do have a lot of friends that are not LDS. But they don’t live near me. They are old high school buddies, friends we made while my hubby got his MBA (and they are THE BEST), and a few we’ve just met over the years. We also have family that are not active.
But we live in Provo. Our ward boundaries are literally 4 blocks. We have two “non-members” in those boundaries and they don’t have small children. Our elementary school is probably 90% LDS. It’s kind of hard to include those not of our faith when there aren’t any, eh?
Still, that doesn’t mean I can’t do more to reach out (and not judge). Just last night we met a new couple in our neighborhood –she has been inactive, he’s not LDS. Their son hit it off with ours and they were pretty awesome. I’m positive we’ll be friends.
I guess I am pretty clique-ish because if you are not one of the six children I gave birth to, or the wonderful man I married, you don’t see much of me. I have 2 dear friends, who I talk to regularly, but It is almost always via email or phone call, as neither or them live near me. We really don’t socialize at much at all. I homeschool our 4 youngest children. The only games we attend are the ones are own children are playing in. We don’t sit in the stands because the while the big kids are playing, I am usually keeping tabs on the little kids. The few nights a year that we actually go out to dinner, are usually for special occasions, like an anniversary or birthday. Even at church I am usually taking the 4 year old to the bathroom, or ushering kids to class and don’t often socialize with other members. Honestly, at this time of my life, I don’t see a way I could change it. And to be perfectly honest, I don’t really want to. I love being with my kids. They make me happy.
Different clique – same point: We aren’t supposed to contentedly remain in our little circle – we are supposed to get out there…
yep. I totally understand that we have become positively hermit-like. While I know that it probably isn’t a great place to be, it is a very comfortable place to be. I know that if I am ever going to change that, it will be something I really have to work at.
I think it is a Utah/Arizona thing mostly. I grew up in Kansas. My mother knew everyone and was friendly to everyone. Our family was the only LDS family in our elementary school, so of course the kids we played with were not LDS. The majority of people I dated in high school were not LDS. Just about everyone we associated with was not LDS. I went to BYU and got married to a wonderful man, also not from Utah. We moved to Connecticut and had wonderful friends in and out of the church. We happened to live in a neighborhood that had 4 LDS families, so we did do things with them a lot, but we also had good relationships with our neighbors who weren’t and our kids played with their kids.
Now we live in Utah. The majority of our neighborhood are members of the church, so just due to probability, most of the kids friends are members. However, I am friends with some of my non-LDS neighbors. My kids play with their kids. I think they feel included in the neighborhood, one daughter goes to Activity Days, boys attend cub scouts.
Basically, it was a lot easier for me to bit be cliquish when I lived in Kansas and Connecticut.
You forgot a vital question on your quiz…What percentage of your facebook friends are not LDS?
Good one!
I was writing up a comment and it was turning into a life-story novel, so I’ll just say that having grown up out of the bubble and gone to school in the bubble and currently living in the South, that the cliques are very real, but are not always present. And while a lot of members in the church are the ones with the sketchy standards you have to watch out for, my ‘best friends” circle always gravitates towards those with the same interests and standards as myself because we have the most in common. I don’t think that is unusual or bad. Everyone in the world relates better to people with similar interests. But because we have been charged with missionary work we often feel the need to reach out to others, and it’s hard relating to people you don’t have as much in common with.
I have been reading these comments and thinking exactly what you said. We can’t possibly be close friends with everyone in the ward or in the neighborhood or in the PTA. But that doesn’t mean we need to ignore or exclude others – in the Church or outside of it. We can be kind and polite and friendly, even if we choose not to have extensive contact with them on a regular basis. I am drawn to people who understand me and what makes me click, and those who encourage me in my desires and pursuits and help me become a better person. Not everyone around me fits that description – member or not.
I have lived in Utah for a few years, but most of my life was outside of UT (and the US, for that matter). We now live on the East Coast, and our ward covers two entire counties! I have seen firsthand the damage that can come from not being wise in who your friends are. That said, my children have friends from school as well as from church. When they have birthday parties, the invite church friends and school friends, and everyone has a wonderful time. But we know their parents and know the children and are comfortable with them spending time together. And our children have always done a really good job of choosing great friends! But between school and other activities, there isn’t a whole lot of free time that isn’t involved in something church oriented – mutual, service projects, scouts, etc.
And during that free time, wouldn’t we want to spend it with others who get us and with people who understand how intricately the gospel is woven into every part of our lives?
Oops – that last comment was from me, but my husband’s account was logged in! He hasn’t quite gotten into the whole commenting on blogs yet! :-p
For me it’s not an issue of being influenced – I just don’t like hanging out with people who are drinking because they get irritating, and I hate the smell of smoke. Why would I want to spend my free time around that? It is probably more about being selfish with my time, and using it how I want, rather than influence.
My husband is GREAT at befriending non-members. He is kind of rough around the edges and often feels out of place among the sqeaky-clean (goofy and freakishly cheerful!) men at church. I, on the other hand…
I think for many of us who grow up in the church, we are practically brainwashed into thinking we will be permenantly damaged by associating with non-members. I remember lengthy lectures about choosing good friends and avoiding people who “don’t share your standards”. I thought every kid in my high school was having sex and doing drugs and if they weren’t they wanted to. I learned this wasn’t true but it took a long time.
Now that I am an adult I sometimes think similar things. How can we hang out with people who drink or smoke? How could we be friends with someone who swears? Can we risk our own salvation? Logically, this doesn’t make sense. Then again, maybe it is a fear that we are not as strong as we think we are, that we will be influenced instead of influencing.
And then there is the problem of those with similar standards not wanting to associate with a “cult member”.
After reading some of the other comments I want to add that I did better at befriending non-members when I lived in Utah then some other places I have lived. I think it because “in the mission field” it sometimes feels more necassary to band together and support one another. You know, “we are around non-members all the time and not we need the comfort of fellow members.” I suspect this is why people so often shudder at my suggestions to invite non-members to activities. “How can we let ‘them’ invade our sanctuary?”
Having been a transplant – numerous times in my life (I haven’t lived in any one place very long – the longest was almost 3 years – for the last 20 years – I have found wherever we have lived society is cliquish based on common ground, whatever it is. For LDS it just happens to be the church/gospel. I have found ways to reach out – not all successful – depending on where I was in my life. Currently, our connections are based on those who will tolerate us having two black children and both of which have difficult issues and behaviours. Sadly, our LDS community is less than tolarant of it – so we have found people who have similar circumstances and we have reached out to them.
Your questions were: With thing we have done to reach beyond…
How do we get out, and get busy?
Find news ways to introduce new skills and talents into your life. No one is too old to learn something new. I have taken courses to learn a new skill or hobby and get to know others – thereby having a common ground on which to build. Start a neighborhood book club and set standards for the books and topics of discussion and then get to reading and talking and getting to know one another. Try neighborhood BBQ’s or deliver treats to those in your community for holidays – the less flashy ones like May day, St. Patty’s, or Cinco de Mayo when it can be more meaningful and less hectic. Attend community events. That is a great way to reach out and get to know others while being more civic minded.
How do we get past our comfortable, friendly world and extend our cliques to include others?
We do gatherings where we ask 2-3 different families from different areas of our life (EX: One from our kids’ school, one from work, and one from the neighborhood)and then get all together for dinner or a getting to know you party. . By meshing different areas of our lives we have created new bonds with each one of these. When we want a bigger party we ask them to invite one other person from their life that we don’t know and boom – new relationships are formed and our circle got bigger. It may be uncomfortable the first time – but soon it flows and is easier to do.
How do we do it without it feeling like a task?
Enjoy it – make it a fun event – who doesn’t like a potluck (lot of non-lds people know this term too ;)) – there is food and lots of fun talking. Also it can be fun if you are learning a new skill like oil painting, dance, guitar,…or how to mend fridges – it is fun because you are learning and growing, and creating new friends. You don’t have to perfect the skill and lots of classes only last for a limited time – it is the connections you make that make it fun – even if it is just a new friendship with the Teacher.
How do we increase our love for others so this desire to share flows naturally?
Lots and lots and lots of prayer to let go of judgment and inhibitions. The more you do it, the easier it gets. I have found in periods of my life when I stop going out it is hard to get going, but once I do it all comes back.
Those are just my $0.52 worth.
Atta Girl! Thanks!
I think it probably reads very much like many active church members lives. I use to think multiple callings was a UK / outside the US thing. Dreaming of life in a ward where being called as a hymn book monitor was the biggest assignment you would receive in your life. But I have come to realise that no matter where you are, if the Lord has plans for you to be busy you will be.
I agree with your point about being so busy in the church that it dampens the ability and desire to go out socializing with other friends. Your description of your life reads very much like mine.
Its not just about being social and inside or outside a clique, its about the time demands that being active in an LDS church community creates. I squirm in priesthood meetings when people encourage more missionary activity from me, I’m an RM and know my responsibilities but wonder how many more hours as a family we can fit into a day. The old cliché “I don’t have any non member friends” is not quite true I don’t have time for many friends full stop.
In our home my EC is in her 5th year as a Stake YW president and is currently in the thick of organising a youth convention.
I serve as an early morning seminary teacher, an institute teacher and a YSA gospel doctrine teacher. There were some times as missionary I didn’t teach this many lessons each week!
My 18 year old serves as a vice chair on the Centre for Young adults which covers the boundaries of two stakes.
My 16 year old is the chair of the Stake youth council and assistant to the Priest Quorum.
I am sure there are neighbours who look out of their window and say look those Mormons are always going out! They have such a busy social life. There are probably ward members that think we miss arranged social activities.
I don’t mix with non members at work as I am self employed and many of my contracts are for maintenance on LDS church buildings that are generally empty when I am there. My last meal out was incorporated into an institute faculty meeting at another teachers home…. I share this just to make the point.
Sometimes I sit at church and think family “X” never really mix or if they do its only with a close circle of people, then I think if they are as busy as my family they probably don’t have time too. Then I look closely and see that just like my family they are probably mixing with those who they serve most closely with at the moment and probably arranging some church related event.
The other point about children mixing, I’m a strong believer in teaching correct principals and letting people govern themselves. My eldest is dating a very nice young man, he serves in the armed forces, he is always courteous, well mannered and respectful, he is an active church member and Priesthood holder. So many times though I get asked “is he an RM?” NO, he isn’t, him not being was never part of my grand plan, but I trust him with my daughter and that is currently her choice.
Wow. I could have written Mari’s comment. Exactly. So instead of repeating, I’ll just add that I am eternally grateful for a friend and her mother that didn’t see anything wrong with her children playing with a non-lds kid. I certainly wouldn’t be here without them.
C’mon MMM. You must be seeing the clique from the inside or you wouldn’t have written this post. You’re an amazing person with so much to share. Go ahead and open up the circle.
Anon: Yes, I am uncomfortably inside the clique – and I need to open up the circle – that was the entire point of the post. The question I am posing is “How?”
I always want to find ways to develop friendships with those not of my faith. For the first time I have a good friend who is basically an atheist. But it’s hard because I can’t talk to her about many of the things that are truly important to me- she just brushes that off as Mormon craziness. She likes to tease me that I’ll have a huge family. It has made me think that I can still be her friend and chat and such, but the friendship will never be like what I could have with someone who shares my values. How could it be? And should I really be trying to spend lots and lots of time with those who don’t share my values? Yes, can still be friends and wave and have a block party including them, etc. etc. But I also need to spend time around people who share my values and strengthen and uplift me. Not that you couldn’t be uplifted by someone not in the church…
Anyway, I struggle. I certainly don’t have any good answers.
That’s exactly how I feel. I live in the South and everyone down here smokes. Not only do I know that smoking is wrong, but I have asthma and cigarette smoke aggravates it, and my husband is a PA and sees a dozen people every day who have heart failure or cancer or a dozen other diseases that their smoking has either caused or exacerbated.
That being said, we hang out with our neighbors in the evening b/c our kids like to run around and ride their bikes in the street and play in the dirt, etc. They smoke. I do my best to stay downwind, and they are very good about telling the kids that cigs are yucky and gross. We don’t have the same values, and I know we’ll never be best friends, but at least we are friendly. I think that’s at least a start.
I think LDS are clannish and cliquey both inside and out. Most of the time I don’t think the exclusion is intentional. It’s easier to socialise and form friendships when you share common ground. Stepping outside of that requires us to step outside of our comfort zone.
Personally we straddle a divide since I am LDS, my husband not. We actually socialise more outside of the church. Not sure if my husband’s non LDS state is a cause, but we have only ever had 2 dinner invitations in our ward in the 10 years we have lived here (although my husband is perfectly comfortable in LDS company and is completely house trained).
Having said that, at the end of the day, the gospel is true and I love my ward and the members in it. They are faithful, they serve, we worship together, renew covenants, and feel the Spirit. Maybe the other stuff is secondary.
I find it’s just not possible to be everything to everybody! Just this week, someone said to me “some people in the ward said they like you but they don’t really know you that well.” I felt bad about her comment and questioned my ability to have real friendships…then I took a step back and realized, I have tons of friends who “know me well”…they just aren’t members of the church and I have plenty of close friends in the ward…they just are older and not in the peer group of the women she was discussing. They are women who I have a deep personal connection to and spend time with every week outside of church. So, ya just can’t please everyone. There aren’t enough hours in the day. Sometimes you’ll be on the outside looking in and sometimes you’ll be the ring-leader. Was the Savior ever viewed as being in a clique? Because he had followers? Maybe, but his invitation was and is always open to all. I think that partially the answer to this dilemma is developing Christ-like love so that we can be welcoming to all and see those who are looking for an invitation. When we are filled with this love, we will almost never feel like an outsider either.
I’m not buying your lead-in. Everybody loves Jocelyn, and if you don’t know her, it is your own fault – or you don’t have access to the internet!
I think there are cliques inside the church also. Our family has always felt a little like outsiders in our ward. We have a child with special needs. He is very high functioning and participates in the cub scout troop but is rarely invited to birthday parties or social gatherings from people at church. Most of the time the party invites he receives are from non-members we have met.
Our daughter’s non-member friend came to visit from out-of-state and they went to two parties. One was a group from our church, the other a group of her non-member friends from school. Her friend commented on how much my daughter’s non-member friends welcomed her but at the church party, no one even spoke to her.
It’s too bad that we don’t look past our differences. It makes for a very lonely church experience. Luckily, we have strong testimonies. We just try to focus on the Savior and serving those around us even when it is hard.
One of these days I would like to discuss inside-the-church cliques, and the safeguards the church has built in to help diminish it. The Church experience should never be lonely.
I never asked what religion my children’s friends were. I didn’t care. My children knew what standards we had and what standards they were to maintain and they chose their friends by those standards. I knew a mother who only wanted her children to play with LDS members. Then she started getting questions like, “So and So are members and they do this. Why can’t we do this? In a more affluent part of my city, I heard of a mother who was upset because her daughter was dating a member whose family did not hold FHE! AS for me, I am not a very social person partly because of health issues. However, I noticed stray judgemental thoughts in my head like “she’s LDS. How does she justify doing that?” I feel the need to clean my mind and thoughts a lot ant try to be accepting of people who do things differently.
We had a sad – but enlightening – experience with one of our kids. He was at a friend’s house, and when he came home we asked him what they did all afternoon. He replied that he watched his friend play video games. We asked why didn’t he get a turn, and he told us it was because the game was inappropriate, so rather than play a game he wasn’t supposed to, he just watched. We were impressed by his your desire to be obedient. (To be fair, this could just as easily have happened at a member friend’s house)
When I first moved to WV to marry my EC I only knew people from church. We went to church on Sunday and we hung out with other couples from the branch during the week. We started our family and while I went to MOPS and other playgroups with non-members, I always connected more with moms from church.
We moved to our current town when our oldest were about to start school. I didn’t connect with anyone else in our ward(it is very clannish, even by ward standards, with half the ward belonging to one family) and have ended up having really good friends with moms outside of our church. I still monitor who our kids hang out with and tend to steer them towards others whose parents I know have high standards (two preachers kids!).
If we are still here when our kids start dating then their choices will be very limited if we make them stick to members. I have tried to encourage friendships between our kids and other kids at church and it always feels like we are held at arms length. I think that if we were to ever move back to our previous town I would probably fall back into hanging out predominantly with friends from church.
Yeah, I totally fail the test.
It is hard not to be “clickish” as I just don’t click with people outside our Mormon circle. My EC and I took a plate of cookies to our new neighbors to welcome them into the neighborhood and the first thing they said after “thank you” was “We’re Jewish so don’t try to convert us”. It’s been that way with just about everyone we’ve tried to strike up an association with. Do we have “Mormon” tatooed on our foreheads which builds up a wall before we even get off the front porch? We’ve decided our clique will be with those who want to be in our clique with us. We still smile, wave and talk when given the chance though. Right or wrong that’s just the way it is…for me anyway.
I remember a talk about when people need help, they will reach up rather than reaching to the side; however, there are many ways to reach out to others without lowering our standards.
We tried to welcome new neighbors when they moved in. We made a good relationship with them and eventually one of our neighbors kept getting the feeling they should talk to us about her brother’s addiction problem and how church could help him. I’d like to say they accepted our invitation to learn about the church themselves, but at least we were there when they wanted to talk about church, etc.
Although we could also say that we don’t really pass that test either.
The fact that they approached you about something so important says a lot about the relationship you established, and your accessibility. I’d count it as a “win”.
Ha, the first comment. Not only do the cliques exclude non-members sometimes our cliques exclude members. I’m sure they were invited but I have three grown children and one 11 year old and I can’t say that they were ever invited to a birthday party by a kid from church. I’m sure they had to be but I can’t remember. Their dad was not a member and we were not married in the temple so possibly a bad choice for friendship. We also did things on Sunday sometimes with the non-member head of the house. Members didn’t like it, in fact while they were having a playgroup, they were discussing how I could justify it. How do I know you ask, they actually called me to ask. My husband didn’t want to be a part of a church like that. Thankfully, he eventually wised up, converted (strictly his own choice, I’m a lot of things but not a nag), we were sealed as a family and then after being a member for 2.5 years he died.
But for lots of years I felt like my family was on the fringes of the ward. We kept coming but it was really hard on the kids.
I completely agree with all your reasons why we are cliquish but it is really hard on the new members to feel they aren’t up to “standard”. We can’t afford to contribute to someone’s inactivity because of our own habits.
I try really hard to mix up my time and since I have to work outside the home most of my friends are non-members. I have lots of member friends too but I still don’t quite fit because I’m now a single, working (by necessity) mom.
The Church is awesome. It is a great place to work on Christlike attitudes and behaviors.
I hope your coming week is grand and I love your blog.
Its funny a small part of my ward is a little transplant from UT and I have never felt like I “fit in” of course I usually feel that about every where but I find my closest friends are the people who share my values and teach strict adherence to their children for me that is a Greek Orthodox who spends much more than 3 hrs at church on Sunday and a Catholic the type that doesn’t use birth control and eats meat when they are supposed to. It is funny I am usually more worried about offending my Mormon friends about strict adherence to the Law/my interpretation of it then I am about joking with my FOOFs (friends of other faith) about how one of our children will have to convert so that we can join our families. I get really uncomfortable in my wards “Clique” when they start talking about inappropriate movies or TV I have nothing to say about it I would only offend someone if I said what I thought. I wouldn’t have any trouble telling my foof’s that I don’t watch those types of movies though we would each state our governing rules of entertainment and be enlightened and move on so I guess I am just as stuck up and such as a clique outsider as you claim to be by being an insider
I live in a area, where I am surrounded by non-members. The reality for my children, is if they want friends- or dates- they are not going to be members. This is why it is SUPER important to have the ability to make choices based upon the spirit. I have more non-member friends, than I do member friends, and I feel so blessed for it. I need them more than they need me. I want my children to have the ability to depend upon the Lords direction in friendships and dating, not wether they are members or not. I feel honored to have those friends, they are a blessing to me, and my life would be empty without them. I think sometimes our thinking needs flipped. We are to be servants, not served.
I also have to add, that working with the decendants of Joseph Smith has helped me with this. Less than 10 percent of his decendants are members of the church- but my the Lord has granted me an instant love for all of them. This has spread into the other areas of my life, and my capacity to treat peoeple with an eternal perpective and not the here and now, and what is apparent has blessed me immensely. Just becuase they arent members yet…or now…doesnt mean they wont be. Only the Lord knows that. Everyone should be treated like as they are.