In our quest for more reverent children, may I present to you The Table. The table was an important part of our arsenal of techniques to help the toddling FOMLs learn reverence. In order for this to work, you must agree with a few key assumptions.
1) If you present a toddler with an alternative that is more fun that Sacrament Meeting, they will fight and cry and squirm until they can get out of the meeting. This includes, walking around looking at pictures, running around the foyer, sitting on the couch watching the other kids, or playing games with mom. If the kid makes it onto the floor, you have officially lost. Don’t even get me started on those saints that let their kids roam free and end up on the stand.
2) President Packer made a good point when he suggested that the fathers take the responsibility of carrying kids out of meetings. I even had a counselor who would leave the stand to take a rowdy kid off his wife’s hands – it was awesome! (Post about President Packer quote here.)
3) You can tolerate a few tears being shed for a greater purpose, as this is the most difficult part.
4) Your child is old enough to converse with you.
A few of you mentioned similar versions of what I am going to say in your comments yesterday. I am glad to hear that others have had success with this method.
The Table
All of my kids had a hard time sitting through sacrament meeting. I get that. It is long and boring for a little kid. Eventually they would fuss or cry to get carried out of the meeting. But instead of taking them into the foyer, I would find a classroom. We were lucky enough to usually have a few empty rooms. I would leave the light off, but the window would provide enough light to see.
I would give my child a hug, tell him/her the following: “I love you, but you can’t act like that in Sacrament meeting. I want you to sit here until you think you can go back and be quiet and reverent.”
I would then set the child on the table. This would freak them out a little because it was a little higher than a chair, and they were too little to jump off. A veritable cageless cage. ( I have one son climb off – I just picked him up and put him back and sternly told him to stay put. Repeatedly.)
Usually the child was crying before we left the chapel, but now thing would really get going. Tears, sobs, screams, etc. My response was always the same: Nothing. No words, eye contact, nothing. I would silently sit on a chair next to the table – but just out of reach, with my head bowed, arms folded.
The child would gradually work out the screams and tears. I waited. I was listening for one specific phrase:
“I want Mommy.” Spoken – not screamed.
I would immediately “wake up”, stand and ask my child, “Do you want to go sit with Mommy?”
“Yes” was always the reply.
“I can’t let you go back unless you can be really good and sit on Mommy’s lap without making noise. Can you do that?”
sniff – “Yes”
“Good, then we will go back if you promise.”
“I promise.”
“OK, let’s go.”
I would give the child a love and take him/her back into the meeting. Upon seeing mom, the child would race to her, climb on her lap, and sit quietly – and sometimes glare at me. If it started up again, all I had to do was reach…
The basic premise is that sitting on mom’s lap is much better than sitting on a table with dad nearby ignoring you. It is effective, but requires some time, and some resolve on the part of the dad. (It is really hard to sit and watch a little one sob and plead for you with arms outstretched.)
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How this applies to single parents, or fathers on the stand, I dunno – never had to deal with that challenge.
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I have one more ultra-cool technique – but I am debating if I should share it or not as it could compromise my identity with some readers…Stay tuned. Update: August 23, 2012 – here it is “Reverence: A “Carrot” Approach.”
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I was looking for the reference of fathers taking their children out of sacrament meeting instead of the mother. My husband has always done this but I couldn’t remember who said it. Thanks for having it here.
As a mom of six even with a child who is ‘the exception’ as you defined it with autism & sensory defensiveness,
I can honestly say…
YOU are DEAD right!
Yay… yay…yay!!!
Is how I felt reading your blog!
I NEVER have packed bags of stuff and carted it into meetings. I do not bring snacks, color crayons, color books, toys, etc to church as a rule, and I have always expected my kids to behave.
I have one memory In more then twenty years of sacraments, where I allowed one Christmas morning for a child to bring her new Christmas present, a baby doll, to church with her.
Our son who has disabilities, gave us all the classic issues when he was little, of not sitting still, rocking in his seat, clearing his throat every two seconds, climbing everywhere, running towards the front of the stand, talking loudly.
My husband didn’t do the table method, as we didn’t often have unused classrooms, but he did sit himself in a hard classroom chair, in the quietest location down a side hall, that he could find, and would hold our kicking screaming crying son calmly in a firm hold until he was done acting out and wanted to sit quietly with mommy again.
This was hard. It required great firmmess, long suffering, patience and consistence.
Over the years it had paid off in BLESSINGS every Sunday…and in his life.
For one, none of the other kids ever gave us trouble, I guess they saw that if we expected our son to behave never allowing his disabilities to make him an exception, they knew there was no exception for them either.
This has effected him in other areas too. Our son is not the exception ever.
Sometimes I think we were just too poor and too young of parents, back then, to get him adequate intervention, we didn’t have or know about special education options in the state we lived in at the time, so we expected him to do as much as he could always and to engage as much as possible in all areas of his life. As a result, years later, he functions in normal classrooms at high school, he maintains As and Bs, and is a ballroom dancer. He is waiting for a mission call now. Many people meeting him for the first time do not even know he has autism.
He has pushed himself to be as normal as he can be. And he thrives inspite of his hardships.
I would add one thought to what we felt also contibuted to our long term success.
Not allowing corn syrup, and other processed foods into our home.
Many many children that suffer from ADHD and similar behavior issues are undignosed with food allergies and gluten intolerances.
Changing our food supply and how we ate really helped our son to cope better. Over time it has helped all of our children to be ‘label readers’ and health conscience as they have entered adulthood.
I want to thank you for being willing to be forward and painfully honest. By the time kids are in school they should be able to go to plays, ballets, and other events without acting out…and I agree if they can sit through movies, they can sit through meetings.
I am certain that if any parent followed your advice in your ‘Reverence in Sacrament’ blog entry that after a few weeks of effort they would have years of grateful moments to reflect over with their kids at church.
Love seeing Families Making the Effort…
Even with struggles…IT IS SO WORTH it ALL in the long run!
Good luck Everyone…Keep Trying!
I was excited to try this technique with my exuberant 2 year old. I took her out and set her on the table, unfortunately I am raising a fearless daredevil who seems to have no concept that she has physical limits, she would have just walked straight off the edge! She thought it was a super awesome game *sigh* back to the drawing board for another reverence solution.
This is really similar to what my parents did for us, but to be honest, I have not been doing this with my 16 month old. We sit in the very back and we probably walked in and out four times last sacrament meeting. Perhaps it is time to start expecting a little more, although we are never giving up our church snacks, sorry.
Our biggest hurdle for bathroom trips during sacrament meeting has always been potty training time. One of my children struggled with this so I was always quick to take her to the bathroom if she said she needed to go. Got caught in that trap! So, to help her overcome this, we sat down and explained that we, her parents, really enjoyed sacrament meeting and it meant a lot for us to be able to be there and hear the speakers and partake of the sacrament. Since having to take her to the bathroom caused us to miss a portion of this meeting that was very important to us, her nursery time (which she liked and was very important to her) was going to have to be cut short as she practiced sitting with her arms folded for the amount of time we missed out on our meeting. Two times and it was done.
These are such great ideas! I’m going to implement them tomorrow. Thanks so much! Reverence is something our kids struggle with, so I appreciate this a lot.
I do have one issue surrounding reverence, however, and that is the feeling of being judged when my kids are irreverent. My husband and I are doing our best to figure out ways to create better listeners out of our kids, but we are not there yet. As much as we both desire their compliance, we obviously have room to grow and are aware of this. I hate those moments (and sometimes entire meetings) where we have gotten glares from families in front of us and repeated judgmental glances back at us when our kids have been irreverent. One day in particular was recently when we were checking out our new ward just prior to moving into a new house. We have moved 4 times in the last year (thank goodness this move is finally permanent) and I know our kids were irreverent that day likely due to the unsure feelings that come with big changes in a small person’s life, not to mention that our life was less organized than normal due to the move. The family in front of us was incessant with their dagger looks and glances – and it wasn’t just the parents, their kids did it too. It made me feel very uncomfortable. We were doing our best at the time, and took our kids out multiple times, but always brought them back in to try again. (How else would they learn?) In any case, I just feel like practicing and teaching reverence to our kids is incredibly important, and I love the weeks when Sacrament Meeting goes of without a hitch, but when it’s an off week, I also appreciate a knowing smile from a family nearby versus a judgmental glare.
What if my child would enjoy sitting on a table?
I really like these ideas! It opens up a new way of thinking, for me. I haven’t been to church in sometime (certainly not since my daughter was born) and am actually planning on attending our local ward here tomorrow for the first time, but I have to say that I am experiencing a LOT of anxiety about it. And not for the reasons you’d expect. I’m extremely nervous as to how my two year old (will be 3 in two months) is going to handle having to sit quietly for an entire hour during sacrament. And I sure hope there aren’t those few seemingly judgmental LDS Moms (like I’ve noticed on this page) that are going to roll their eyes at me doing my best to teach my child how to properly behave at church when they may not agree with my methods. I was planning on loading up on coloring books and snacks because that’s what I grew up seeing other LDS moms do and even my own mother, but this blog post has changed my mind. If I start that now, it’ll be what my daughter comes to expect at church so I might as well start off with the particular methods this post suggests, even if it’s harder, to begin with. I feel especially for those moms who are doing it alone. My husband, who is in the military, is away right now and so I’m going to have to do it solo. It’s quite intimidating. I can’t imagine those moms (and dads!) doing it solo with MULTIPLE children. So cut those “dumb parents” a little slack. 😉
Wish me luck! Hopefully these techniques have as successful results for me as they have for the rest of you! Fingers crossed! =)
It is hard, and every kid is so different. I would suggest that you try “The Table” with the oldest boy and dad. Your son might find it fun for the first 5-10 minutes, but eventually he is going to get bored, and miss you and his little brother. But dad has to be BORING. He can’t look at him, or talk to him, or try and communicate until your son is ready. Dad has to be prepared to sit there like a zombie for 45 minutes if necessary!
However, not everyone is the same – your results may vary. Good luck!
What should we do when both of them are acting up? The younger one I doubt is ready for ‘the table,’ but if we give hims snacks and books and the stuff we normally give them, then the older one will want them too.
I would just explain that he is the “big boy” and he gets to save his snack for home. If he protests, back to the table.
You could try “oops! I forgot the snacks” when you are trying. I think the key is the older boy, worry about him, and his brother may just follow suit.
April Dawes – any luck yet? I’m facing the same really difficult scenario. My parents used the “table” on me, and we have used it up to now for our two older sons. But my 2 1/2 year old is going to be the end of us! Every week he continuously acts out, by trying to crawl out from under the pew and run around the chapel (sometimes I miss grabbing him with the newborn in my arms!) My husband takes him out to the empty dark classroom and ignores him, waiting until he pleads to be taken back in. But up until now, no luck. This is a kid who relishes freedom more than any other thing, period. He actually prefers the empty dark room to the pew, simply because there is 5 feet more room there. Let me know if you found anything that works! My husband hasn’t sat in a sacrament meeting in forever!
We’ve been trying to figure out what to do with our boys. We have a son who is almost 3, and another that is 17 months old. Sacrament meeting is a nightmare. The only thing that we have found that keeps them quiet is food, but I’d really like to stop doing that. When I was little I remember going out to the foyer with my dad and he held me on his lap with his arms around my arms holding them down tightly so I could barely breathe let alone move an inch in any direction. We can’t do that with our boys, nor could we take them to a classroom and put them on a table, because they would think that it was the funnest thing in the world. They find fun in everything and they are constantly laughing. It especially doesn’t help that they are so close in age and they play off of each other so much. If one kid starts acting up, the other will act up twice as much and it just escalates. I don’t like to take them out because no matter what I do they’ll have fun with it, which is why we have succumbed to snacks. That at least keeps them in the meeting and keeps them quiet, but I don’t want to do that. I want them to sit and feel the spirit and learn patience. Any suggestions?
I love ur table idea. Usually I take my kids into an empty room and they sit it the corner until the calm down. My daughter (2) is often kicking and wiggling when she throws a tantrum so I think a table would be a little too dangerous for her. I understand why some would do te “straight jacket” for such situations but I prefer her to learn to sooth herself.
I would say the hardest part for me is being a military wife with a husband deployed a majority of the year in a 100% military branch reverance isn’t always accomplished. The spirit is never felt when others are giving dirty looks or rude comments cuz my two toddlers are being disruptive. The only result is me going to a classroom to cry. I do try to instill reverance in my children but I’ve come to realize that if I’m too busy worrying and stressing over my children being quiet that I’m upset the whole time and literally didn’t here one word spoken then what message am I really giving them?
I feel your pain 100%! I’m starting back to church tomorrow after quite a while inactive and I’m doing it alone because my husband is away (military, as well). I’m praying my two year old surprises me and actually behaves! LOL It’s nerve-wrecking enough without knowing a soul, being by myself, and having to deal with a toddler. Hopefully, since our ward is about 80% military (or so I’ve heard), they might sympathize if my daughter decides to make things difficult for me, like you stated. 😉
Bekah! Congratulations on your return. I hope it turns out well for you tomorrow. Let us know! I’ll be rooting for you.
Seems harsh.
Comments closed on this post. Thanks for participating!
Wow I love the advice. Still trying to figure out how to make it all work for my family. I think my biggest question is did you EVER let your children have distractions? Are they just too hard to take away at some point? At what age did your children begin to understand the talks? I guess a little trickier because my kids don’t know the language sacrament is being taught in. I have a 2 year old, a 1 year old and another baby on the way and a husband on the stand. My 2 year old can converse with me but obviously the 1 year old can’t. I also feel so distracting when I leave. I was carrying the kicking and screaming 1 year old out and when I tried to take her out the 2 year old laid down in the aisle. Can there be a time and a place for a quiet book. I let my child look through a gospel ABC book I made full of church art. Did you ever let your children have distractions? Do you think it is appropriate for a husband to come off the stand to help take a child out, what if a child goes to sit with the husband while I take a screaming child out. We don’t do snacks or leave and have fun but I have to admit I don’t know how I would make it without my distractions…help!
Melissa: You are in the absolute most difficult stage. To have little kids, and your husband on the stand is really tough. Our opinions came from years of failure and then years of success.
Today we sat next to a family of 6 that had colored goldfish, pretzels, coloring books, iPhone, and a pad and paper. (My 10 year-old had to help pick up the pretzels that got spilled during the meeting.
Unless you have someone who wants to help you out (A YW, or a couple with no little kids) you aren’t going to be able to use the table – and personally I wouldn’t have your husband come down except for occasional crisis.
I totally get why a distraction would be good with your little ones. So, if it helps, I say go for it.
Two last thoughts: 1( Don’t be ashamed for taking you child out – people appreciate it. 2) Don’t stress about this so much- you’ll have plenty of time later when your 5 year-old is trying to play the organ during the meeting.
Melissa- I’m in a pretty similar boat. My husband is on the stand, I’ve got a 2-yr old and one on the way. We have 3 wards and no empty classrooms. I try to keep her actively engaged in what’s going on during the meeting. During singing, I give her her own little hymnbook and ask her to sing with us. She doesn’t know the words, but she sings loudly. We always fold our arms together during the prayers and she ‘watches’ the young men passing the sacrament to see when the priests stand up or when the deacons are walking back to the front. I do take her out when she’s especially loud, but other times I use a gospel quiet book- one with the pictures of the prophets, one with pictures of temples. My husband keeps reminding me that there are stages to life and this too will pass eventually as long as we keep trying. Good luck!
Melissa, I usually brought something for my children to look at AFTER the sacrament. I had books with church pictures and extended family photos. My second child was particularly difficult. She was loud even when she was happy! I found that taking her to church hungry, then feeding her small, non-messy snacks helped keep her quiet. My husband would take a noisy child out to sit in a classroom on a chair (hadn’t thought of the table idea!) Once the child was baptized we didn’t bring snacks or toys for that child. Parents need to hear the meeting too, just do your best. My children are now teens and we work to keep them awake. There are many different stages!
Melissa, I realize you wrote this reply almost a year ago now, but I am so glad you said something. It is really hard to do a lot of the reverence tricks when you are sitting on your own and sometimes it feels like you are the only person that doesn’t have a spouse next to them to help!
I have three kids (4,2 and baby) and my husband has been on the stand for several years now. Some things I have found that help are that we don’t do anything till after the sacrament. After the Sacrament I have very very limited items they can look at, but they only come out if I am having a Sunday where I feel my patience coming to an end! I like having my distractions ready as a back-up but not as the main event, so to speak.
I really try not to take my kids out because I too feel like we are a spectacle of distraction just trying to get out the door. Instead if they are misbehaving I will tell them “no” or “shh”, set them on the pew again and then face forward to pay attention to the speaker. I really think since they aren’t getting my attention for their bad behavior, it stops, quickly. When they are being too disruptive and I need to leave I have a family that sits behind me and they take whoever is not being taken out.
The last piece of advice I have, and this is not for everyone, but we sit on the second row in the center so we are directly in front of the pulpit. I found when I sat farther away from the pulpit my kids acted up more because it is harder to feel connected with what is going on. Also, when they are facing forward there aren’t friends in front of them waving or trying to get their attention.
Good luck. I know it is really tough sitting on your own, but it is nice to know there are other people out there going through the same thing.
This comment will NOT be sharing any reverent tips – I don’t have any children of my own yet.
When I was 15, I was the ward organist, my dad was the bishop, my youngest brother was 3, and we were meeting in a new chapel that had the design flaw of not having the pews on the sides of the chapel go all the way to the wall. There was enough of a gap to let a toddler slip out of the pew, but not enough space for an adult to move after the toddler to keep them from getting farther away. Consequently, my little brother was often running around the chapel, much to my dad’s embarrassment. My mom and my sister would be trying to corner him, but he often just ran back and forth. Once, during the closing song, he ran up on the stand and started standing on the pedals as I was trying to play the organ. My dad hadn’t noticed him running up there, but did notice that my playing sounded worse than usual. He figured it out pretty quick and stood up to pick up my brother. The greatest time, though, was during ward conference, when my dad was giving a talk on reverence, with my brother running back and forth and back and forth to stay away from my mom and my sister. The stake president was about to fall out of his chair laughing at the irony of it. He began his talk by saying that the ward members could trust the bishop, because they knew he was facing challenges the same as they all were.
I don’t really remember what my parents did to teach reverence, but we all turned out to be reverent and active members with strong testimonies – even the youngest.
Love it, we have done the daddy “straight jacket” in the hall or available chair since all the rooms are taken by other Wards. The child can sit on my husbands lap in the hall with his arms wrapped around the child. There’s little to no talking daddy just keeps saying “Daddy’s trying to be quiet so he can listen.” Two or three times with each child and we don’t have a problem anymore. Our problem is what to do to keep it reverent at home after church with 3 active young boys and a toddler who don’t have the chance to exercise and release the pent up adrenalin that usually accumulates. We love scripture stories, books, projects, etc. But what to do when they just want/need to run. We even try to stay in our Sunday clothes to remind us what day it is still and to discourage any rowdy behavior. Have you discovered a way to run reverently?
I might get persecuted for this, but I see nothing wrong with going on long walks on a Sunday afternoon – to a park, to visit someone, or just around the block. Just leave the frisbee at home!
we allow our children to run around the church yard behind the building after church every Sunday to get some of their energy out before getting into the car. OF course, we only live 5 minutes from church, but they love it, nonetheless. I also talk to them about where we are and how it’s not a playplace and how outside we can run and be loud…this is for the younger ones so they can learn the difference..and it’s a reminder for them so they can remember where they are…
I really like the idea that some people have posted of a practice time for those children that needed it. That way they know if they don’t get it right on Sunday and they are distracting others then there free time will be spent working on it. GREAT IDEA!
I just wrote a post about how I tried out a version of your reverence tool. I think it’s really going to help! Thanks for sharing. Here’s my post if you are interested in how it went:
http://hollythehomemaker.blogspot.com/2012/03/teaching-children-reverence.html
I never meant to say or imply that I didn’t believe in teaching my children to be reverent. Of course I do, and I did. I was trying to make the point that there are better ways to do it rather than through fear or force. My opinion.
Again, of course I think as parents we have a serious responsibility to teach our children reverence and respect. I see no excuse not to. And I agree with you Paul, if they do not know how to be reverent they will have a difficult time feeling the spirit.
I see lots of replies and thoughts/criticisms from you but no concrete ways you taught reverence. Please share with us how you were successful.
G’ma Honey,
I don’t understand why you assume MMM is “forcing” his children to be reverent. He’s simply allowing his young children the blessing of a consequence for their choice.
Most parenting experts teach the value of consequences in teaching our children important life lessons and standards of behavior.
My own experience is that we can enact MMM’s suggestions pleasantly or meanly. Meanly rarely works. But that’s not because of the consequences.
Said another way, the consequence allows the child a specific choice. Choosing reverence may allow the child to feel the spirit in a way that not being reverent might inhibit (as a child or in the future).
When our kids misbehave, we take them to the car. Big or little, they have to strap into the car seat until they have settled down and beg to go back in. I usually sit in the front seat and give the occasional lecture about how they need to be reverent.
This is almost exactly what we do. But I use a chair (the dreaded “time-out” chair), and I always pick a room where we can pipe the sound through. Actually, it’s easier for me to take notes in time-out than when I’m in sacrament meeting. They do try to get down, but like you said, a stern correction or placing back on the chair fixes that problem quick.
It works wonders. We’re to the point where we have 4 kids under age 6, and only once a month or so do we have to take any kid out.
Love this approach.
We never had a spare classroom, but the building had some lovely corners that were appropriate for isolating a misbehaving child. My children always knew that it would be more interesting to be in the chapel than to be taken out.
Oh, if I didn’t know better, I would say that MMM is actually my husband! This is the EXACT treatment all four of our children had when they were small. Rob would pick up a fussy or otherwise ill-behaving child and walk out the chapel doors and into an unoccupied classroom and plop the child on the table. He would listen the the sobs and shrieks until they subsided and the little one would heartily agree to return and sit quietly beside the family in Sacrament Meeting. No threats or bribes were necessary. It only took two, maybe three times of sitting on that table and the lesson was permanently learned.
I’ve often wondered if any of my children sat in a classroom in later years looking at that table during a Primary or Sunday School lesson and wondering why they felt inexplicable terror.
Exactly. I wouldn’t want my children feeling that way about any part of the church building. I wanted them to grow up with sweet memories and to feel the spirit.
I often think of this Primary song:
“Rev’rence is more than just quietly sitting:
It’s thinking of Father above,
A feeling I get when I think of his blessings.
I’m rev’rent, for rev’rence is love.”
And no, I did not let them bring food and run around. Or bother anyone else.
I really don’t mean to be judgmental or rigid in my opinion. But I do feel so strongly about the messages we are giving our children. I tried really hard not to associate punishment with church. And I tried to be respectful of their feelings and their abilities.
My sister once told me about a class she took at BYU on child development. One of their assignments was to sit on a hard chair with their feet not touching the ground, and stare at a blank wall for an hour. This was suppose to broaden their understanding of what little children experience at church before they understand why they are there. I believe we need to help our little ones through this because ultimately we want them to desire to be there. To desire to come every week even as teenagers. And to one day desire to raise their own children in this wonderful gospel.
I believe the best way to teach them is by example. And while showing them how to be reverent, also show them the joy you feel by being there. It will take time and patience, but they will catch on.
Good thoughts, Grandma. (I didn’t want to say “Honey”) I sure hope my kids are never sitting staring blankly at anything for an hour – I know that’s not what happens in church! That’s what laps are for. I know when kids are playing hangman or coloring Spiderman, they sure aren’t “Thinking of Father above.”
So far, no apparent scarring from the table. All five kids are doing OK.
My sons didn’t play hangman or color Spiderman in Sacrament meeting either, that I remember.
Not to scare anyone…and I mean no disrespect at all by saying this, but the largest group that goes inactive, are the YSAs.
Why is this? There could be many reasons, but it makes me think of a talk I heard years ago by our Mission Pres and his wife. After their short talks they opened up for questions (this was during our SS time). Someone asked something like, “What is the one thing we can do above all others to help prepare our sons to serve missions?” The MP’s wife answered this one, “By teaching them to say heart felt prayers.” She went on to explain that many come out into the mission field knowing all the answers…obviously having sat through many Primary lessons, Sac meetings, etc. But their testimonies are not solid because they don’t have a relationship with their Heavenly Father.
In no way am I saying if we force our children to be ‘reverent’ that they will never have a testimony. So not true. But on the other hand, many of those children will have resentment for us and the church as they grow older. Their testimonies could be so camouflaged by their resentment and even anger, that they refuse to grow and flourish in the gospel.
I don’t understand why a little consequence to an action results in resentment and anger. The world we live in has rules for us to follow and if we don’t abide by those rules we must deal with the consequences. I grew up with a single mom and had 4 other siblings. She always taught us to be reverent and if we didn’t obey there were consequences. I grew up understanding that it was an important thing for her to have us “behave” at such a special time. I don’t think that teaching your child to calm down before they can enter the chapel is a bad thing, nor does it send signals of hate or anger. Its all in how you deliver the consequence (not punishment).
I think it is more of a consequence than a punishment. Neither of which is scarring when delivered by a loving guardian. If your children feel safe and protected by you than they won’t be scarred when you teach them the right way to behave. And Sacrament is not staring at a blank wall. Even very small children know who Jesus is, and if you talk about Christ at home and read the scriptures at home engaging your children, there is no reason for them not to be engaged when others talk about it too
I’m impressed that I had the same idea about the table all on my own. Woot woot for me!
Don’t have time to read all the comments but I will tell you that as the part of the part member family who attends church I never let my child’s feet touch the floor until she was 3 (with each successive child). They didn’t know they could wiggle in the pew, crawl under benches, etc. If they were out of control, we went to a empty room, stood in a corner, facing me, or sat on a table, no moving. The lesson was you have waaaaay more freedom in Sacrament meeting, sitting or lying on the bench, not standing on it, not crawling under it, etc.
Because it was just me, I knew I would have to have absolute control because I needed child #1 to be ok with my leaving, if necessary with child #2, etc.
Sostinkinhappy: That truly is a tough spot – the main reason we go to church is to take the sacrament. That said, I would suggest you support, follow and sustain your leaders in what they are asking you.
Now let’s think outside the box: How about using an available classroom, or the RS room where one of the five of you could be “designated babysitter”? Take turns. It might be utter chaos for the poor babysitter with 5x the kids, but the other 4 of you could take the sacrament 80% of the time. If that is too difficult, use two moms, and you would hit 60% .
I wouldn’t look for it to be an “official ward program” but rather a few friends helping each other out. Then, when the sacrament is over, go get our kids and come back. A nice ordinance for most of you, 20 minutes of crazy for the other.
Just an idea…
I live in a ward near the largest air force base in the world. Like many other women, my husband is chronically deployed. We have no one to help out with this situation. If my toddler gets, fussy, I take her out. However, in doing so I miss the opportunity to take the sacrament. In our stake, we have been urged to take noisy children out of the chapel during Sacrament Meeting. The Stake President has also issued an edict that *only* those who are in the chapel are allowed to take the sacrament. No exceptions, unless you are sick at home then it will be brought to you.
Consequently, there are about five of us moms who are already at our wits end who now go for weeks without partaking of that ordinance. 🙁 We have all addressed the Stake President privately and he has told us the same thing: Sorry, only those in the chapel get to partake of the sacrament. His main concern is that we won’t be able to hear the prayers. We have suggested we could sit with our fussy babies/toddlers in the RS room or the YW which both have sound. He said that wasn’t possible because then the Bishop wouldn’t be able to “control” (his words, not mine) who was partaking of the sacrament unworthily because the Bishop wouldn’t be able to see who was in the room.
So we mothers with husbands who are deployed are in wee bit of a bind. Do we take our fussy babies and toddlers out as we have been told and not partake of the sacrament or do we stay in the chapel with our crying baby/toddler so we can take it? Or is there a third option we haven’t thought of (short of staying home every week and claiming we are “sick” so the sacrament can be brought into our home)? Advice? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
I doubt this is a Christ-like reply, but it sounds like the Stake President has left you little option. He has asked you to do two conflicting things. The Lord asks that we take the sacrament weekly to remember Him, but the Stake President asks that you leave with crying children (to keep the reverence). In my opinion, I would stay, try my best to keep the crying limited, but stay nonetheless. I’ve gone weeks without the sacrament before, and it wears on your spirituality. If the Stake President comes to you again about leaving, tell him a higher source has asked you to stay.
Perhaps you could alternate. One week in, one week out. But don’t go too long without the sacrament. It’s important.
I personally think we need to be more concerned about what is going on within the heart of our child. We can do all sorts of things to make a child be quiet, but I think we need to focus more on what are we teaching them. Is our child really going to feel the spirit and love to attend church if they have to go their on a Saturday and just sit there for an hour “to learn”? That is torture to a small child. Even a small child can learn to love going to church and feeling the spirit. I think we need to really consider what is going on in their minds. Are they learning fear? Are they learning dread? Are they learning love?
It takes lots of patience. It can be frustrating and tiring. I raised 4 sons at church usually sitting there alone with them. It’s a supreme privilege and blessing to be a member of this glorious church. I wanted them to grow up feeling that.
I understand what you are saying – the goal is to have the kids desire to come to church and feel the Spirit. My suggestion is that learning and feeling the Spirit is not going to happen if they are fighting over the red crayon.
Love and discipline are not mutually exclusive – in fact, they go hand-in-hand.
I will say this: I was much more of a “Sarge” to my older boys than I was to our younger kids. I think the younger kids have about the same age-appropriate reverence as their older siblings, but with a much better attitude about being in church.
It’s all in the “how”. I think Grandma has a point.
Me too. But my younger kids also have the advantage of having some really great examples in their older siblings – which is probably more important that anything I try to do. It has gotten much easier – Looking back, I don’t know if my youngest ever met “The Table”. I’m just grateful that FOML1 started us off on the right foot.
As a mom of three young ones and a husband on the stand, I think this applies to taking things in baby steps. I do want to show my kids love and help them feel the Spirit, but in order for that to happen they first have to know how to sit still. It is my job as a parent to take the steps necessary to learn reverence. It doesn’t come natural to most children and if left to their own devices they would never be reverent! I need them to learn to be quiet so that they are able to learn everything else. So these techniques are not about fear, they are about love.
We used the coat room since our classrooms were all full. But the effect was similar.
And more than once as a bishop I left the stand to take a child out of the meeting. (I’m not sure every more than once per child, though…)
My motivation for helping my children to learn reverence was for my own personal worship. I wanted to be in sacrament meeting and to listen. My wiggly kids distract me. (Now it’s not so much that they’re wiggly — the teenager wants to sleep….)
Also, when I’ve been in a bishopric with young uns’, I’ve often had one sit with me on the stand (there’s great power in dividing and conquering among the Bedlamites…)
That’s a great idea!
I’m in the “three wards in one building = no spare rooms” group. So I do this same thing, but I take my boys into the restroom adjacent to the Baptismal Font. There’s a small bench in the stall that leads to the Font’s dressing room, so that’s where my boys sit until they can behave. I hate standing in the stall with them, but it gets the job done.
Your table idea is so great. (We used an empty chair, but I like the table idea even more.) We also employed another technique. If my children had a hard time sitting quietly during church, we would have “practice time” during the week. We would sit quietly on the couch — no talking, playing, etc. (Sometimes I would play a conference talk CD so it was a little bit similar to sitting in a sacrament meeting listening to a speaker.) The amount of time and the number of days we “practiced” were directly related to how they had behaved during church on Sunday. I would explain that it wasn’t a punishment. When we have difficulty with something, we have to practice so we can get better. After a few weeks, when they even started to misbehave in sacrament meeting, all I had to do was whisper, “Do we need to have practice time?” They quickly shaped up and sat quietly. Once they got good at sitting reverently during church, we no longer needed to “practice” during the week. 🙂
And as I recall I had the hardest time with “practice time” it was the WORST. I think I need to start having it with my boys. And I really like the table idea!
I LOVE the reverence practice idea. Especially that it is teaching that reverence is not a punishment. It is simply a good behavior that we are learning and becoming. Just like learning any other good skill. Thanks for sharing!
I would die of shame if one of my kids wandered onto the stand. Oh! I would just die dead. I would be in the spirit world completely helpess as my child climbed into the bishops lap… or began banging on the piano keys. Horrible notion, that!
it would utterly destroy my sanity too…but I have seen it happen. I can only smile inside and know that this mother was doing her best just by being there with her kids! Even though the little girl ended up sitting with the Bishop or one of the counselors during Sacrament. Her husband was inactive. I was worried at first, but then I just smiled and was happy they were at church where they were supposed to be!
Something a great woman in one of our wards did was if her kids were irreverent during sacrament then the following Saturday they would go into the chapel and sit for an hour to practice sitting revrently. She would keep starting the hour over if the kids acted up.
Also, if you really pay attention, most of the adults are irreverent too.
Something completely AMAZING that our old stake pres. did was announce to each ward that they would keep the sacrament doors closed prior to (and during) sacrament, the deacons were to stand outside the doors and shut them if someone propped them open (out of habit). If you needed to talk to anyone then we could go out into the foyer. He also asked that we not bring snacks for the kids and take out crying kids during sacrament meeting. The Spirit, revrence, and peace felt in the chapel was utterly amazing. It is one of the greatest things we miss since we’ve moved from that ward.
We try to instill that same mindset and not talk to others while we’re waiting for sacrament to start, but it’s hard when others don’t do the same.
Going to try it this Sunday. And the next, and on….
I would love to hear the other one too…if its not going to hurt your identity too much. : )
Thanks for the tips….they were much needed with this frustrated mama!
This is something we have considered taking the plunge on and I think I am finally converted. The trick will be to get my in-laws to go along with it. We have tried it in the past and my MIL started bringing her own stuff for the kids. *sigh* Sometimes having family in your ward can be more of a curse than a blessing.
or the couple behind you who have fruit snacks and thinks he’s being nice by giving each child a bag! lol
We are currently living with my in-laws and it’s the worst possible thing for our sacrament meeting routine. My MIL is the same way about filling her bag with stuff for the kids. It drives me NUTS. Most of the time I just position the kids with which ever person is farthest from her, which is totally sad, but that’s how it’s got to be. I haven’t had to, but I’m fully prepared to have a sit-down chat with her and lay down the boundaries.
We were also “mom as straightjacket” folks, and lived in big wards where there were no empty rooms when the kids were young. I’d either grab a chair in the foyer or outside some bishop’s office. The hardest part was training ward members who were roaming the halls NOT to come talk to us or try to entertain the exiled child. I love the table idea, though, and maybe the mean Grandma who goes there!! Joey
I love this! I feel for single parents. We had a single dad join the church and his son was very active. This little boy had never been to any church in his life and had never been taught reverence. One very caring elderly woman took him under her wing and did just what you are talking about. He was reverent in no time.
I 2nd the “mom as a straight jacket approach”! My husband has been sitting on the the stand in one capacity or another for 3 years now and that likely won’t be changing any time soon. Consequently, there isn’t any teamwork possible for Sacrament meeting. I also agree with much of your comments, MMM and found some ideas prticularly interesting. I have recently been debating on ditching the crayons & paper nice I have been feeling like it causes me more stress than going without. Thanks for the encouragement, I think I’ll have to take the plunge and get rid of the “church bag” items!
Great idea! I do like the idea of having my husband take the kid out- since he’s usually sleeping through sacrament meeting. ( : I agree that no distractions is the way to go. The problem comes when you have 3 wards in a building and they overlap each other and there is NOWHERE to go. If you are in the hall or foyer your screaming child is disrupting the classes going on nearby. There are NO empty rooms in the building. I’ve gone to the car before, but in the winter it’s freezing out there. I think they need to start building a soundproofed cry room in each building! ( :
And a pre-nursery class. My one year old is too young for nursery but refuses to sit through Sunday school and Relief Society. It would be awesome to have a class where parents with young kids could go, let all the kids play while we get to here the messages.
Holly, I totally agree a designated cry room would be amazing!:) in their absence though…when all the classrooms are full we have often used the entryways (you know, the space between the doors when you enter the building), as they keep the sound in pretty good, and even if I haul a chair in there I only get appreciative or amused looks from other ward members. We have also used the Mother’s room if it isn’t occupied, and once or twice I have even resorted to the bathroom (we have a nice wide counter I can set a child on). Nothing ideal, but they work in a pinch!
I think the most “cry-proof” room in the building IS always available–the Mother’s Lounge. It smells and can be cramped when wards overlap (I’m dealing with the same problem), but sometimes it’s the only option…
If no room is available in my building I use the kitchen. The mother’s lounge is more like social hour than a place to teach reverence.
We did the Mom-as-straightjacket approach in a spare room. Similar idea. I always wonder at those dumb parents who don’t understand that running around the hallway is NOT A PUNSIHMENT.
Wow, dumb parents? I constantly am in awe of LDS women that are completely supportive of each other. I hope this is not how they are speaking behind each others back.
those “dumb” parent you speak of are probably the ones whose parents did not teach them to be reverent during sacrament or they are converts…and they are trying to figure it out all first hand.. That’s pretty darn smart in my book.
Agreed. I think we often underestimate how difficult it is for 1st generation members to assimilate, or for those who are trying to “take it up a notch” from their family tradition. Tough stuff.
They likely are not trying to punish. Sometimes the parent would rather be in he hallway too. This too is an opportunity to not pass judgment. Just because you have an opinion and like it and it works for you doesn’t make anything elseis sub par and subject to harsh judgment.
WOW, it’s people like you that are the reason why people who are just doing the absolute best that they can feel judged and eventually leave the church. So… Sad!!!
C’mon kids, play nice.
Don’t get mad at her for judging, than judge her right back! Opportunity to pass on love 🙂
I think it would have to be me that did this. My husband’s a softie:) But they LOVE to sit on his lap so the whole thing in reverse could work!:)
I take the kids out…Husband would just let them cry or pitch their fits in sacrament if it was up to him. So I use the “Do you want to go sit with Papi?” phrase. works just as good 🙂
I am told My dad did that to me but he used the shelf on the coat rack I have not known what to do because here in Florida they don’t do coat racks in the church The table seems like a great Idea I really don’t know if my husband could handle the Reverence Discipline he does not have the tradition of reverence that I do
Back before the other units moved into our building, we would use use the RS room. Had the benefit of having the sound piped in from the chapel so I could still (sort of) listen while the kids threw their fit. Now all the good rooms are in use…but our kids have outgrown that stage.
Ha ha. My husband did that to our kids. They would have to sit on the shelf above the coat rack. I think my older did this once and learned his lesson. My younger son sat on it a handful of times before he figured out that it wasn’t as fun to be stuck high on a shelf. Love this post.