1) Wardrobe question – my dear husband is on the Stake High Council. He’s down to one very worn suit and refuses to purchase another because he says the minute he does, he’ll get released. What’s your position on proper attire for callings requiring suits?
OK. *Deep breath* Here goes.
Q: What’s your position on proper attire for callings requiring suits.
I wear a suit, white shirt and tie to church every Sunday. I also get there early enough to sit on the soft benches. Yes, I am super-duper-righteous. When I was a bishop I wore the same thing. When I was in the High Council, I wore the same thing. When I was Scoutmaster, I wore the same thing. When I did not have a calling, I wore the same thing. I am nothing if not predictable. I’m not really that fond of white shirts. I rarely wear a white shirt or suit outside of church.
Why?
Reason #1: Because I don’t dress according to my calling. I dress my best regardless of my calling – because I come to the church to present myself before the Lord and participate in sacred ordinances. I figure that is reason enough, but there’s more.
Reason #2: I have four sons – three are preparing to serve missions, one already served. As Aaronic Priesthood holders, they have been counseled by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Dalin Oaks & David O. McKay that young men should wear white shirts when participating in the ordinance of the sacrament, if possible. Well, for us it is possible. So I join them in wearing a white shirt. As a father, I am not comfortable asking my children to live up to standards that I am not willing to live up to. (References: Holland, Oaks, McKay: Conference Report, 1956, p. 89)
Reason #3: I get it. Elder Christofferson said,
So, for me it’s a suit, white shirt and a tie. Easy.
* Oh, did you notice the big red asterisk? While there are no directives about attire for church callings or attendance, the second that your leader (Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, Apostle, Prophet) asks or instructs you to dress a specific way, it instantly ceases to be a fashion issue, and becomes an issue of obedience.
Simply put, it becomes an issue of PRIDE vs. OBEDIENCE. I have no compulsion to “express my individuality” by the way I dress at church on Sunday. I am perfectly content to let the Quorum dictate my decorum.
••• Gonna go get a soda – be right back… K, I’m back.
Question #2: Mormons and Beards.
Q: Mormons and Beards. (That isn’t really a question now, is it? It seems more like a statement or a heading.)
A: I am not aware of any directives from the church mandating specific grooming standards.*please note asterisk.
I don’t have a position. And I don’t have a beard – I do have an opinion. It might not be the same as yours. I am clean shaven. No beard, no mustache. No real desire to have either. You? You can have a beard. Or a mustache. Even a Snidely Whiplash mustache if you feel it necessary to be “you”. I have flirted with having a desire for facial hair, but will probably never grow it out. I have also never gotten past the “itchy” stage when I am on vacation.
Why?
Reason #1: Elder Russell M. Nelson was speaking in Conference a few years ago and said something that I think flew right by most everyone. It is truly profound, which means you should read it twice. At least.
To bear the priesthood means you have a personal responsibility to magnify your calling. Let each opportunity to serve help to develop your power in the priesthood. In your personal grooming, follow the example of the living prophets. Doing so gives silent expression that you truly comprehend the importance of “the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.” Russell M. Nelson, October Conference, 2003. “Personal Priesthood Responsibility”
Reason #2: I have four sons – three of which are preparing to serve missions, and I have a ward full of boys that I LOVE and am rooting for. As they are working to become missionaries, I don’t want them running around with beards. I also do not want any of them to ever have cause to use me for an excuse for slacking off on their standards. “But mom, I don’t wanna shave – brother MMM has a beard, and he used to be the bishop!” Elder Bednar gave a great talk a few years back about not waiting to become a missionary, but to start now. (Link here) Again, I am not comfortable asking my children – or anyone else’s children – to live up to standards that I am not willing to live up to.
Reason #3: There are callings in the church that require a priesthood holder to be clean shaven. (Full-time mission, temple worker, etc.) I am not comfortable having personal grooming standards that would need to be modified in order to fulfill a specific calling. I also would not like to put a leader in the position where he would have to ask me to change in order to fulfill that calling. I want to be ready, at a moments notice, to serve wherever, however the Lord wants to use me – without needing to go home and shave, or make any other changes.
Lesser Reasons
Reason #4: Most beards do not look like George Clooney’s. Please note picture above. If I looked like this with a beard, it might be a more difficult issue for me.
Reason #5: My wife doesn’t like it. Yeah, I know it isn’t a very good reason, but I know a few guys who don’t really care, but their wives are really obsessed and/or protective of their husband’s beards. (Yes, we men are that malleable.)
* Second big red asterisk: While beards and mustaches are not against any church standards or policies, the second that your leader (Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, Apostle, Prophet) asks or instructs you to be clean-shaven, it instantly ceases to be a personal grooming issue, and becomes an issue of obedience. I have been in wards where the request has been made. I also feel that a leader has the right to ask, if so inspired. It is fascinating to see how people grapple with that situation.
Again, it becomes an issue of PRIDE vs. OBEDIENCE.
And for those who employ the lamest reason of all…
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We are currently struggling with the beard thing. I personally do not feel a beard has any bearing on a person’s spirituality. My husband is clean shaven and my son and two son-in-laws were bearded and are now clean shaven. One is shave because his work required it and the other for a Church calling. Our son-in-law that shaved for his new calling is struggling. He promised my daughter she would never see him without a beard because he looks like he is fifteen. (She is older than him and she appreciated that!) He also has more confidence when he has a beard and it shows now that he is clean shaven. I for one do not like my gray hair and dye it because it makes me feel better. I feel the same about beards as long as they are trimmed and groomed. Our son has a beard and it has made a huge difference in his professional life. He is an ER doctor and looks very young for his age. He has noticed the patients that come in during a crisis have more confidence in him because he looks older. I would love the brethren to speak directly on this. It can be hard to understand if it is different from Stake to Stake.
I hate shaving. As soon as I see one of the Brethren pop up in COnference, I’m throwing away the razor. Funny how people will shave for work without making a peep, but shaving for a calling is a struggle.
My husband has no chin to speak of. He had to shave it for a tyrant boss at one time. I hated it. I suspect he’ll have to shave it again someday for a calling. I’m preparing myself.
My husband is from a small farming community in Idaho called Malad. The first time I went to church there I was shocked to see young men passing the sacrament in white shirts and jeans. I firmly believe that the sacrament should be passed in white shirts and slacks.
When I brought it up to my husband he looked at me for a second and told me that they’re farmers. That is their Sunday best. Not their mud and crud crusted jeans, but clean, pressed blue and black jeans that are reserved for Sunday.
So while I do believe that priesthood holders should wear white shirts, ties and slacks, I also believe that the Lord will also accept the widow’s mite and those who truly are wearing the best they have.
I agree – but it has no application in my neighborhood. If that truly is the best they have, I think that is great. But if their cowboy hats cost more that their church slacks, not so much.
I used to work with a guy, (returned missionary and all that) with a pretty substantial ponytail. I asked him if is was ever a big deal at church. He said “no, but if I were ever called to a position where it might be a big deal, I’d cut it off.” A few weeks later, he had short hair. Turns out he was called to be the EQ President and decided, on his own, that the ponytail might be a distraction.
P.S. I used to think shaving would be cool, but now its kind of a drag (much like business travel, by the way). However, my EC dislikes facial hair, so the ‘no’ vote wins every time. A man has to have priorities. Without our EC many of us would be little more than bears with furniture.
What a FANTASTIC post! You know what I love about your posts? You don’t say just, “this is what I think.” You give references to scriptures and apostles and I appreciate it.
I didn’t know about the white-shirt-for-ordinances thing until a few years ago when my hubby told me.
I’m confused about the open-toed shoes for women. It’s not something I’ve ever heard. I do always wear nylons to the temple and have heard that we should have the same attitude when dressing to attend our meetinghouses. I guess I just need to make the mental conversion. My aversion is more self-image than anything.
I think Kristan’s comment about sandals better left in the bedroom is referring to extremely high heels, bordering on stilettos? Definitely inappropriate when you consider the intent behind such footwear. A note about flip flops though. I think they are highly inappropriate, especially if you have something better at home and are just too lazy to put them on. This was addressed in a GC talk to the YW, but I believe that it applies to all.
We live in an area where it’s very common for people to wear jeans to church, which screams against all that I’ve been taught my whole life. I try to take their situation into consideration but still have a problem with those whom I know have been taught differently. Also, with the weather we usually have in winter it’s not uncommon for women to wear boots. No, not cute fashionable boots with heels. I’m talking snow boots. Maybe it’s just me, but I find it very distracting to see on the RS president. Is it so hard to bring some heels to change into once you come in the building?
I like the quotes you included. I know several people, of other denominations, who claim that it doesn’t matter to God what they are wearing at church on Sunday. It’s more important that they show up at all. I love the idea of your outside showing what is on the inside.
“jeans? Like what I’d wear to wash the dog?” I understand that some will wear jeans to Church, but its not for me. I like suits and secretly wish I worked in an environment where I could wear a suit to work every day. However, I have been told by those who have experience and who know better (my dad) that wearing a suit every day to work can be a chore. Maybe it comes down to the fact that we natural people tend to dislike what we feel compelled to do.
Yes, and I’ve been meaning to ask: Is that YOU on page 7 of the November 2011 Conference Issue of the Ensign????
Thanks, mmm. It might be time for this column to wind up, but I will offer a last thought. I think perhaps I read D&C 1:38 a little differently than you do. As I understand it, it means that all of the words the Lord has spoken will be fulfilled, whether through him or through his prophets. I don’t read it as meaning that the words of the prophets are “the same” as the words of God. But I think we will agree on the words from the next verse that the Lord is God, the Spirit bears record to any who will hear and that record is true, and the truth abides forever.
I love and sustain the brethren as good men, even holy men, even prophets, seers, and revelators, and I don’t want to teach contrary to them. May God bless all the men and women of the Church.
Paul:
I look forward to your post about this topic. (I’m sure I’ll catch it because I already read all of them)
I was unaware about the counsel about the watches. I’m going to look for it, and if I can find it, I’ll stop wearing my watch in the temple. Easy-peasy. (I probably will anyway, because it sounds lik ea good idea – thanks!)
MMM, I think ji raises a legitimate issue (which I’ll blog about in the next little while) about how we take counsel given in conference. Does it matter who says it and in what context? Does it matter if it’s oft-repeated in conference? Does it matter if it’s a “small” comment that many overlook?
Case in point, Elder Scott recommended that we take off our watches when we go to the temple. I’ve heard almost no one repeat this counsel, even in the temple. And I see plenty of patrons wearing their watches (though I take mine off).
All that said, you’ve been very clear that you’re describing your experience and why you’ve done what you’ve done, and I believe that is the right approach.
JI: I appreciate your candor. As I consider your thoughts, I think where we differ is the weight we put on the counsel given by church leaders. Where you look at it as “good advice”, I see it as a much more literal manifestation of the “voice of God”. Because of this distinction, I think we both react differently to the counsel given.
I am more of a D&C 1:38 kind of guy: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”
If I didn’t think this way, I probably wouldn’t give much thought to a lot of what is taught.
I had to laugh at the iphone message thing. In our stake, not too long ago, a young boy was asked to speak at a priesthood meeting. (My husband related this story to me.) This young boy stopped in the middle of his talk to point out his hair. It was very short and clean cut, but he hated it that way. He used to have very long curly beautiful hair. And he loved that hair. And then his parents said he had to cut it. He responded by telling them that he was following Jesus’ example and to which his parents responded: Jesus was too busy serving the people to cut his hair. If you are too busy serving others then it is okay. He ended with “Look at my hair”.
My wife and my son want me grow a moustache (re-grow, actually). They’re both good and honest Latter-day Saints. Not disobedient, not prideful. I like to think that I’m not, either, even though I will probably re-grow my moustache.
I fully support the brethren in their efforts to lead us and counsel us. They are good men, even holy men, and they give us a gift of good advice in each conference talk. I appreciate their gifts to us.
In my mind, there is no conflict in what I have written in the above two paragraphs.
I think beards a simply more common here than they are on the center place (I live far away from the center place). I have heard Church leaders say that as the Church spreads across the world and to all peoples, they struggle to separate out the gospel (which needs to be shared) and center place culture (which doesn’t) — but it is VERY hard to do and mistakes have been made. I don’t know if this is one of those mistakes. But regardless, I can honestly say that the only place I have heard about a prohibition on beards is here in the bloggernacle.
More troubling to me, though, is how quickly we seem to judge our neighbor when he or she is different from us; to see our approach as righteous and his or hers as unrighteous (rather than just different). My learning through all of this is to be very careful that I don’t confuse gospel and culture, either as I inspect my own life or as I interact with my neighbors. For this reason, I appreciate these postings.
LOVE THIS POST!!!!!!!!!!! It helps that I agree wholeheartedly on all points, but still.
JWW
Thank you for this post. I completely agree with everything you said here.
As a single woman I find I’m much more likely to be interested in the men that take care in their dress and grooming. Of course, I usually seem to date the ones that don’t…
You’re right, come to think of it.
Since I would choose not to follow the instruction to wear nylons on a day I didn’t want to, my agency would not be infringed upon!
😉
fyi..and I live in Cleveland, OH…our stake prez won’t call a man to bishop who has facial hair unless he agrees to shave. Temple workers in Cbus cannot have facial hair either. So yes, it’s an obedience issue but comes out more like a commandment. Personally, I love beards and mustaches…and yes my husband has a mustache and he was bishop before this man became Stk Prez. I think Robert was grandfathered in. No mention was made..and naturally he now on the HC (ugh) and he hasn’t been asked, nor made, to shave. Go figure
MMM, I think one of your commenters thanked you for the quotations. (Just sayin’)
I think Elder Christopherson’s comment is right on. The outward appearance can be an indication of what’s going on inside, and if the outward appearance doesn’t match the holy occasion, then someone doesn’t “get it.” If the person who doesn’t get it is new, it may be that person needs some time to learn by loving example. If the person who doesn’t get it has been around a while, maybe he still needs to learn by loving example. As your more recent post makes clear, I ought not to be judging the person sitting next to me in the pew (unless it’s my 15-year old; I can’t resist that…)
As for Elder Nelson, his comment did not fly past me when he said it, nor when I read it here. I have pondered it (in my bearded and non-bearded state in recent years) over time. I will confess that I truly don’t understand his comment that dress and grooming demonstrate an understanding of the importance of the preisthood.
I do understand that dress and grooming may be important to a time and place (such as temple worship or sacrament meeting).
I will also add that the unwritten order of things spoken of by Elder Packer is a talk I’ve read more than once. He has used that theme in leadership meetings I’ve attended, as well. And generally I get it. But I do not believe (as ji has also suggested) that it is meant as a club of judgement to be held over our fellow saints.
Having an “unwritten” or “unspoken” or “hinted at” standard is a challenge to the saints, because as a people we tend to want to be obedient. And we notice when others aren’t. And we embue obedience (rightly so, I think) with a great deal of moral authority. Therefore the perceived absence of obedience is also an issue.
For that reason, when I was called the second time as bishop, I sought the guidance of my “file leader” (also a phrase Elder Packer likes to use) and acted according to his counsel. (In fairness, that counsel predated Elder Nelson’s talk you’ve cited.)
Bookworm: I think that question does deserve some study and attention – perhaps its own blog post, because it seems that what the discussion has distilled down to.
Ji: If you do grow one, make sure it is a manly one, and not one of those wimpy mustaches. Oh, and send in a pic.
Mimi: Fabulous story. Point taken. If you do see someone at church in a banana costume, please sneak a picture.
Kristan: I don’t get the whole open-toed shoe controversy. Nor do I understand about women’s sandals that shouldn’t be worn outside the bedroom. (dumb guy)
Anonymous: Yes, I agree there are occasions where there are exceptions to the rule, and I am glad that the person you referenced was able to be in tune enough to sense when the Spirit was directing her in that direction.
Thanks all for the engaging comments. I hope I can keep my job!
This question is sincere: What do you do when a local authority asks you to do something that not only irritates you but is contrary to the handbook? I.e., a stake president asking that only men open sacrament meetings with prayer. Women can close. I thought we’d put that whole silly thing to rest when the new handbook specifically states that both men and women can say opening and closing prayers in sacrament meeting. I admit I don’t know the reason for the directive and don’t feel like I should ask the SP to give me a reason. I wonder if it’s a “higher law” thing? I’m not a bishop so it doesn’t impact me directly but it does make me wonder when is it okay to say I don’t want to obey/agree with a local leader. (Waiting now for lightning to strike.)
My BIL lived in a ward where a transvestite was a member, and he attended services in full drag. Ward members complained to the bishop ad nauseum. The bishop got up and said (at the pulpit) that he didn’t care if the man came dressed in a banana costume; he and everyone there had the right to take the Sacrament and worship and learn about the Savior. He’d rather have the man there in drag than not at all.
My husband gave me a blessing when I was at death’s door in the ER once while he wore a red henley that had holes in it. That ordinance held just as much respect for and understanding of the sacred as the one he gave me while he and our home teacher wore white shirts and ties when I had a really bad flu. And I know it healed me and saved my life.
Oh, and he was sporting a goatee when he did both.
I’m with you MMM, you have two quotes by Apostles that make it pretty clear. I especially like the one about what’s on the inside, showing on the outside.
Thought on the opened toe shoes: it may not be about the fact that some women’s sandles shouldn’t be worn outside the bedroom, let alone church. It may be a safety/liability concern. Regardless, if the Bishop asks…
mmm, I appreciate what the apostles said — they’re good men and they offer good advice — but even if a member decides to accept that advice from a friend as commandment from God, he or he cannot insist that other members accept the advice as commandment. I also appreciate that you started this posting by explaining what you do and why you did it. That’s fair. All I can say is, “Behold, here is wisdom, and let every man choose for himself until I come.”
I think I’m going to grow a moustache. I hope none of my fellow Church members will think I’m hiding a greater sin.
Oh, I will happily comment on your quotes from Apostles! Elder Christofferson’s ” ‘I don’t know the difference between sacred and profane.’ ” sure screamed at me. That articulates what I’ve been trying to put into words for several years now. It is a much more general statement than most of the comments have been about, but it speaks to the state of our hearts and our intents. It makes me breathe a sigh of relief, because, despite all the things my family isn’t perfect at, our hearts are in the right places so far, and that is a thing to build on.
As a side note, I never thought much about wearing hose to the temple until we moved to Alberta and in the Cardston temple you remove your shoes pretty much at the door and then walk that way to wherever you are going. Suddenly, bare legs and feet seemed so wrong. Now that we are back in Utah, I am torn about wearing hosiery. Just a little thing to say huh about.
As I stated in the post: I don’t care if you have a beard or wear non-white shirts to church. I was just answering questions and letting you know why I do what I do.
I do have three thoughts after reading the comments:
1) The new post is one.
2) I don’t think it is the “thick of thin things” if prophets are also bringing it up.
3) I am amazed that we are 42 comments deep and nobody has acknowledged the two profound quotes from two of our Apostles. I thought that would be the focus! You never know!
Amen Jj.
I get it. Yes, show respect by wearing a white shirt and tie, shave your face if you feel more comfortable about it. My husband does it, my sons do it. I get it, I get it. But I am saddened to the core by the air of judgements and assumptions that not doing so leads to. ‘In the thick of thin things’ comes to mind.
Due to the roundness of my head, if it were not for my goat, I would look like Charlie Brown. And, I’m one of those whose wife doesn’t want me to shave. Probably more cuz of the Charlie Brown thing than the George Clooney thing.
That all males must be clean shaven is not part of the unwritten order of things. Why do so many among us want so much to negatively judge our neighbors in the church who have beards?
The Church leadership requires full-time missionaries to be clean shaven, and it asks its general authorities to be clean shaven. It might be that they will not call a bearded man to be a stake president. If a stake president won’t call a bearded man to be a bishop, well, I suppose that’s his business. All of this is fair, as they can call whomever they want and I’ll sustain them. But we as members really must not create a standard and enforce it on everyone else — that would be unrighteous. May each of us love and support our neighbors in the Church regardless of whether they are bearded of clean shaven.
For any man who wants to be clean shave, more power to him. For any man who wants to wear a beard, that’s okay with me, too. It’s also okay with the Savior, in my mind. It seems to me a man’s wife should have far more say in this matter than his bishop or his neighbor or his neighbor’s wife.
Elder Packer spoke to BYU students 15 Oct ’96, in a landmark talk called “The Unwritten Order of Things.” I think it has application to this discussion. The talk included the following:
“So, following that example, today I want to tell you something about the Church. The things that I shall tell you are not explained in the scriptures, although they conform to the principles taught in the scriptures.
“A principle is an enduring truth, a law, a rule you can adopt to help you in making decisions. Generally principles are not spelled out in detail. That leaves you free to adapt and to find your way with an enduring truth, a principle, as an anchor. The things I am going to tell you are not explained in our handbooks or manuals either. Even if they were, most of you don’t have handbooks–not the Melchizedek Priesthood or Relief Society handbooks and the others–because they are given only to the leaders.
“I will be speaking about what I call the “unwritten order of things.” My lesson might be entitled “The Ordinary Things about the Church Which Every Member Should Know.” Although they are very ordinary things, they are, nevertheless, very important! We somehow assume that everybody knows all the ordinary things already. If you do know them, you must have learned them through observation and experience, for they are not written anywhere and they are not taught in classes. So, as we continue, if you are ones that know it all, be patient while I teach those who do not–and take a nap. The basic foundation of knowledge and testimony never changes–the testimony that God the Father lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that the Holy Ghost inspires us, that there has been a restoration, that the fullness of the gospel and the same organization that existed in the primitive church have been revealed to us. Those things are taught everywhere and always–in our classes, the scriptures, the handbooks and the manuals–in everything we do.
“The fundamental doctrine and instructions on the organization of the Church are likewise found in the scriptures. In addition, there is another source of knowledge relating to what makes the Church work: We learn from experience and observation. If you learn about these things that are not written down, the unwritten order of things, you will be better qualified to be a leader–and you are going to be a leader. The most important positions of leadership are in the home–the father, mother, wife, husband, older brother and sister.
“Then, in the Church, positions of leadership and teaching opportunities are available as nowhere else on earth.
“While the things I will talk about are not written, they are really quite easily learned. Just be alert to the unwritten order of things and take an interest in them, and you will find that you will increase your ability and your value to the Lord.”
WOW! I Learn so much. Thanks MMM and all your “followers”! Now I have some ironing to do.
When my father-in-law became a temple worker, he shaved off the mustache he had worn for 40 years. I still don’t recognize him. No one asked him to shave it off, he just thought that working in the temple deserved a clean upper lip.
What’s interesting isn’t that he shaved, but that no one asked him to. I understand from my father-in-law that there is another man working at the same temple who kept his mustache without any complaint from the temple presidency (as far as we know).
I do think there should be some Church stance against mullets, however.
Wonderful post! Thanks for the quotes!
Linda:
Yes I did. I asked the ward to do something that wasn’t in the handbook that was pretty difficult. (Which requires a great deal of conviction and trust in your inspiration.) Many followed. There was some murmuring – some of it pretty loud. For the most part, those who followed were blessed. That’s all the detail I feel I can share with giving myself away.
I did have a bishop who asked us to HT & VT twice a month. We thought he was completely nuts, but it was an inspired request that healed a ward.
I have never worn a suit and tie in my life. And, I’ll admit, I have never shaved my face. I hope I’m not bad 🙂 (or need a shave)
But, I’m curious for an answer to my question about feeling you had some inspiration for your ward that wasn’t directly from the brethren..(which is downtown for me)
First of all, always follow your leaders. If they’re wrong, I believe that you’ll be blessed for following their counsel anyway (within reason). Secondly, people look on the outward appearance, so they will judge you on yours. Luckily, you have a choice in how you will appear when it comes to clothes and grooming standards. I agree that it’s better to wear a white shirt and tie to perform priesthood duties. However, I have found that home teaching less-active members in plain clothes is more effective for me. A friend in my ward has a beard and wears pink shirts (and shoes) but always wears a suit. So I guess he’s trying to have it both ways. I have many small children, so I’m just happy when we can get everybody to church on time. I tend to wear a white shirt and slacks, but not a suit, mainly due to my kids’ mutant ability to mess up my church clothes every week with half-chewed cheerios, crayons, markers, vomit etc. Suits are harder to clean than shirts and pants I can wash regularly. I have a Stake calling and try to wear a suit and white shirt when performing my duties. I guess I’m waffling back and forth here. There are just a number of basic doctrines that I tend to worry about more than dress and grooming standards. I’m just happy to see some people at church and to be there myself. It’s amazing how you can watch the spirit touch people’s lives and see them change their clothes or grooming without being asked. I guess the answer, as with anything, is get the spirit and follow what it says to do.
When I was released from being a full-time missionary I was so excited to not have to shave every day. But I shave every Sunday because I want to look my personal best when I go to worship on the Sabbath.
I live in FL about 12 our ward are really from the western Mormon culture we had a lot of contention in our ward about what people considered proper dress people being all judgy and stuff so our RS pres read the latest hand book info on church attire that asked bishops and stake pres. not to make requests like nylons and shoes ect. She said we need to remember every one is different and we should all dress to our own level of understanding and be patient with those who are of a different mind
mCat: Very sad situation with your father. Thanks for sharing it with us – also thanks the good insight.
Glad I don’t have to remove any earrings – sounds traumatic.
This has been a hot topic in my family for many years. First off, appreciate JI’s comment.
My father was inactive. He would only come when one of us had a 2 1/2 minute talk to give. He had been offended early in his membership, didn’t have the testimony to sustain hurt feelings and allowed himself to become inactive. One particular Sunday, he had come to hear my give my little talk and then somehow we were able to persuade him to stay for Priesthood. Next part to the story is my dad was a flashy man, this was the late 70’s early 80’s and he was very proud of his YELLOW suit. Bright yellow. He was wearing it to church that particular day, and the priesthood lesson was about the directive from the brethen to wear conservative colors. How sad, that one man’s testimony was so fragile that the discussion sealed the deal for him that he would never set foot back in the church, and that another man’s lack of sensitivity hurt another person’s feelings and made them extremely uncomfortable. We are TOO QUICK TO JUDGE! So what if he was in a bright yellow suit. THe ward knew this was huge for him to even be there, the lesson material might have been handled slightly different.
My husband was YM president for too many years to count. He always wears a white shirt, tie and suit. Period. Did before his calling and does after his release. The only time he ever detoured from that was the once a year lesson, when he would purposely wear a red shirt to show how distracting it could be to others.
As a mother with rebellious teenage sons, I chose my battles, and while they had been in white shirts and ties from the time they could walk, once they hit the years of rebellion, we were just glad that they came to church. If their chosen shirt was black, oh well – they were there with us in the pew. AGAIN, WE NEED TO LAY OFF THE JUDGING!
My feelings on the beards are exactly the same. Unless the prophet or one of the twelve specifically outlines the standards, I think we need to love and appreciate every person who makes the effort to attend, serve and worship.
PS – when the prophet advised the women to stick to one pair of conservative earrings, I cried for days as I removed my extra three. But in my mind, the prophet had spoken, therefore the Lord had spoken and it was now a commandment.
Just my nickles worth, or even penny….
It’s funny how worked up people get about beards, open-toed shoes, nylons etc. I have 3 boys and 1 daughter. 8 years old is when the boys wear white shirts. It doesn’t matter if it’d 11:00 p.m. of earlier, my hubby dresses in a white shirt and tie to preform a blessing just to show respect for the ordinance. As a YM pres. he had the boys roll down their sleeves to preform the sacrament. it’s a personal preference, not a commandment. If you’re asked to do it……do it.
Several months ago our bishop said ladies needed to wear nylons, closed toed shoes and men needed to wear white shirts. It was sad to me to see the judgement from those who figured people were being disobedient.
Everyone has good and bad qualities. My sins aren’t better or worse than yours. We all need the same mercy.
As a Bishop, did you ever feel prompted to do something above and beyond what the brethren downtown said…to benefit your ward?
Sue: I agree with you in that I, too, would not appreciate being told to wear nylons. Uncomfortable AND embarrassing!
However, I humbly disagree that it has anything to do with agency. You can still choose to wear them or not. The only way it would impact your agency is if they pinned you down and forced them onto your legs.
Ji: I understand what you are saying – where I think we might differ is that when an authority speaks to me at a conference, I see it as counsel from a leader – it is my intention to incorporate his counsel into my life as best I can. I agree that I can have a beard and not be disobedient, however if one of my leaders asked me to shave it off, and I refused, I would consider myself disobedient and unworthy of a recommend. But that’s just me.
Isn’t it great that we can all have our own opinions? I truly appreciate your words “I see it as…” You are very respectful of your own opinions and yourself as well as of others and theirs when you say that. Thank you.
May I add that we all have the right (and some would argue the responsibility) to ask our leaders directly if the counsel/announcement/request they present to us came about through divine inspiration, then use the Gift and Power of the holy ghost to know if his/her answer is true and applicable to us. Pres. Benson counseled women to not work outside the home when they were mothers with husbands who worked. Someone I love prayed about that counsel and received the answer that she should keep working. She was criticized and berated by women in her ward and her bishop. Soon thereafter, she became her child’s sole financial support, as her husband was no longer with us. Nothing is black and white.
Well-stated post. And well-stated response from Jl.
I come down on this subject somewhere between you and Jl. Having said that, I respect your opinions and can definitely understand the reasons for them. (My husband, who is a bishop, would align with you, I believe…reasons AND opinions.)
I have to admit that I personally would not appreciate being told to wear nylons, even though I almost always do.
That would feel like someone was infringing upon my agency.
=)
There are four parties to a talk in a church meeting, such as a stake conference: The speaker, the hearer, the Holy Ghost, and the neighbor.
The speaker should teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. He should seek the promptings of the Holy Ghost in what he says.
The hearer should be supportive of the speaker and should listen intently. He shod seek the promptings of the Holy Ghost in what he hears.
When the Holy Ghost bears witness to the hearer of something the speaker said, then and only then is there scripture or commandment in what was said. In the same address, the Holy Ghost might impress something upon me that he does not impress on my neighbor.
The neighbor needs to worry about the Holy Ghost’s message to him, not the message to me. In the present instance, the neighbor should worry about his own beard, and not the beards of other hearers.
If a visiting authority comes and speaks on beards, he is giving advice — he is not giving commandment — and there is nothing to obey. This isn’t a matter of obedience. A man can have a beard without being disobedient. His neighbor in the church should not judge him as disobedient.
In my Sunday School class last Sunday about Lehi leaving Jerusalem, the teacher asked how many of us would be willing to pack up and leave town if the bishop told us he had a dream and we all needed to leave town to avoid a disaster? The bishop? No! I thought to myself, I probably would not be obedient to such a demand from my bishop, because what he is asking is outside his stewardship. Same if he asked me to invest my life savings in his company or to make love to my wife every Saturday night so I would be in a good disposition for Sunday. Regarding Lehi, it was the Lord God who commanded Lehi, not Lehi’s bishop — and there already was a prophet in Jerusalem named Jeremiah, and Lehi’s vision came from non-approved sources.
Each member of the Church needs to make his or her own decisions, and we need to love and support each other.
I say all this as a clean-shaven white-shirt-and-suit-wearing member, not as a bearded pink-shirted sinner.
I really believe that when we hear a message, we must individually ask the Holy Ghost to help us understand it and apply it in our own lives (not our neighbor’s life). Not every church talk that gives advice is fully applicable to every member. I might not be ready for the advice in some talks. I might be past the advice in other talks. Yet some talks will be spot on, and the Holy Ghost will remind me that I need to pay attention.
May God bless all the men of the church.
Well said. Brother Brigham once said something to the effect of “It concerns me that the members of this church will take what I say as absolute Truth without getting on their knees and finding out for themselves first.” And that was when he was President of the church.
I was thinking that first question wasn’t so much “I’ll never wear the suit again if I get released”, I was thinking she meant (like I sometimes feel) If I tell the Bishop, ward, etc. how much I love this calling they will release me. It seems that’s how it always happens. Does that make sense? Probably not, it’s early.
Well, I’ve stuck my foot in it, so I’ll take another turn.
My three oldest boys who all wore white shirts ended up leaving the church. I don’t think it was the shirts, but let’s not assume that having an eight-year old where a certain shirt makes all the difference.
But when those boys (and my fourth son who still attends with us) turned 12, we did make a big deal about white shirts, ties, priesthood, sacrament, and so on. The white shirt & tie became (for our youngest) part of the rite of passaage, and it seemed to work for him.
Two funny story regarding my beard when I was a bishop:
In Venezuela, my ward clerk’s daughter would never talk to me (she was three). She would talk to other adults, but hide behind mom or dad if I said hello. I figured it was becausse of my serious gringo accent, but her mother told me the doc who gave her innoculations also had a beard; she was afraid I was going to give her a shot.
When I was called in the US, the Sunday I was to be sustained I attended ward council. We knew the bishop was to be released (he was moving that week). As one member of the wc came into the room he shook my hand, saw I still had my beard and said, “Well, you won’t be the new bishop!”
Great post. And thanks for the HUGE laugh form the text message posted. Hilarious!!!
I agree with everything said here and appreciate the way you are able to articulate your thoughts so well! (I wish I could!) I was just talking to my mother-in-law recently and she was telling me about an instance where women in a ward were asked to wear nylons to church. She was not happy about it and we had an interesting discussion. I think it’s like you said, “Pride vs. obedience.” Why do many of us claim we’d cross the plains if asked, but when asked to wear nylons to church we balk?
On beards I do have to say that I feel a little bit badly for a few men out there who have a “baby face” and are much improved by a well kept beard or goatee. I’ve only ever known one or two men like this and they do wear simple, well kept beards which greatly improve their looks and allow them to look their age! ( : But I hope that if there was a need for them to be clean shaven they would do it without hesitation.
100% agree on all of it.
When we lived in Georgia a visiting authority came for our stake conference (and stake reorganization). He looked out over the congregation and told the men they needed to shave their beards off so they would always be ready and prepared to serve in callings without having to change. It was very interesting to see who obeyed and who didn’t. 🙂
Sharline: Phew!
Nan: We never ran into that problem with any of my boys, so I wouldn’t be any help. We just never gave them an option.
I do have some nephews that weren’t expected to wear white shirts until they turned 12 – that seemed to work for them.
Before people on the interweb (or my ward!) think my husband has a secret life on the side…
Ben does not have a husband.
He was still signed in and I unknowingly left the long comment under his account.
I laughed pretty hard when I realized what I had done.
Thanks for not judging him.
LOL!
@mintifresh — I let my girls wear sleeveless dresses and tank tops. But they KNOW that they HAVE to put a shirt on underneath. My 5 year old has a few tank top shirts and always puts a shirt on first without being asked.
Yes, that’s how we do I here, too. I don’t mind tanks if they have something under it but my kids try to bargain to wear tanks alone so I just try to avoid them so there isn’t a fight.
Thank you for taking the time to articulate this. I appreciate your thoughts. Well spoken, sir.
I would like opinions on young boys and white shirt/ties. I was able to dress my little boy (when he was 1-2) in a white shirt and tie. Loved it. When he got old enough for an opinion, he hates white shirts and ties. He doesn’t like it so snug around his neck.
He is 7 now and I have told him on occasion that he will have to wear a white shirt and tie to pass the sacrament. I made him wear a white shirt/tie to a wedding. On Sundays though I let him wear a nice pair of slacks and a nice polo shirt. They are clothes reserved only for Sunday.
Ok, so long intro, but I was wondering if anyone else had that problem and if they were able to get their boys to start wearing white/shirt ties? I have bought a cheap suit for him as he grows, he just doesn’t wear it often.
I’m the same way with my girls. Tank tops and shorter shorts really fine, you can wear them if you want but one day my girls will be going to the temple so I may as well train them now to wear temple worthy clothes.
Ben: I’m not trying to be insensitive, but I am going to make the assumption that this comment is from Ben’s wife or mother, not Ben. If it is, in fact, Ben, and your husband has a beard, then we have other issues that need discussing that are far beyond the scope of this blog.
Interesting statement: “Sometimes I feel like we’re rebels because he has a beard.”
I’m excited to leave a comment, because I’m a dork. Did I “ask” the Mormons and Beards question? I know I at least wanted to, but don’t remember if I did. My husband has a beard and I think he looks mega hot with it. He grew it out almost 3 years ago and has shaved it off a few times, but always grown it back. I’ve always liked full, short, well kept beards and he wasn’t able to grow one out because he worked in the food industry and then he was in a branch presidency and branch president for 5 years. So when he got released, he also left his job for one in another industry (we were moving out of state) and didn’t shave for a few days. And he’s been Mr. McHottie ever since. hahaha When he showed up to church clean shaven once not too long ago, people speculated that he was going to be called as the new bishop. Anyway, I;m torn. While I love his beard and think he looks good with it, I question whether its a good choice.
Elder Oaks came to visit and we knew we were going to have personal interaction with him and we joked that he would ask the hubs to shave. He briefly considered shaving. But ended up saying that he needed to own up to it and kept it. Elder Oaks didn’t say anything to him 🙂
My husband’s father has a beard, and I don’t think any of his children have ever seen him without a beard.
Sometimes I feel like we’re rebels because he has a beard.
And dress…my husband ALWAYS wears a suit, white shirt and tie. Leadership calling or not. I think the worst thing he could ever wear to church would be khakis! He’d never do that!
I LOVED this post!
My husband has never had a beard and has always worn a white shirt and tie to church. Our boys have always worn white shirts and ties. I think with apparel it is also a habit you can help your childrn form early on by setting the exampe as you have said. We have a bishop in our stake who wears a beard and, honestly, it looks strange. He looks very out of place. When having discussions about these two topics my husband says, “Follow the example of the brethren in grooming and dress.” It is the same as with piercings for women. The prophet has asked us to only wear one pair of earrings. If we wear more than one we can still go to the temple and serve in callings, but it is a question of obedience. Are we willing to let an extra pair of earrings, grooming, an R-rated movie, caffeine or anything else stand in the way of exaltation? When it comes down to it, obedience in small things will separate us because we’re either willing to be obedient or we’re not, whether that’s in big things or little things, it’s a state of being.
Great post!
I remember one time having a discussion with some friends whose bishop had asked that the ladies not wear open-toed shoes to church. They were all in a tizzy about what could possibly be immodest about open-toed shoes and that the bishop had no right to ask it. I have to admit I don’t really see the need to worry about open toed shoes (we’re talking pumps and heels here, not flip flops). But that’s why the bishop is bishop. Maybe he does. And if I owned any open-toed shoes and my bishop asked me not to, then I wouldn’t.
On the other hand, I don’t often have money to keep me in stock of the nylons I’m supposed to wear to the temple. But I’m hoping that ankle length skirts makes up for that.
Love your obedience! My sweetie wears a beard just SO he won’t get one of those callings…
Sandy
I have 3 boys. I also have a husband. I pretty much 100% agree with all you said here.
I find that all too often it is a “hot topic” for people and it shouldn’t be.
I also love your friend Paul’s comment about shaving his head. We should all be so willing to serve the Lord, however He wants us!
I agree with your opinions. I would also add something. We have several men new to the gospel and church in our ward. Several have facial hair, sometimes wear jeans, and have tattoos. For these men I have utmost respect because they are doing their very best to make changes in their lives, and I know that gradually they will learn some of the things the rest of us have grown up with. Several have already asked about white shirts, suits, and other things and why they are worn, and one showed up in a suit the second Sunday after he was baptized.
Love Paul’s comments!
Thank you for this. I’ve tried to articulate my answers to these questions and they’ve always come off as very self-righteous rather than logical. My hubby is the same (white shirt, suit, no beard), but the beard thing has more to do with his patchy, random facial hair than anything. Ha!
Paul: I was hoping you would comment, because I know you have a beard, so thanks for venturing in. I am definitely keeping your quote: “I would have happily shaved my head to serve in the temple.” Genius.
Oh, and as for white shirts, I’m with you all the way. (Though I do enjoy the occasional meeting my SP shows up to in a blue shirt when he does’t have to sit on the stand.)
On beards (and my picture reveals my position), I think Reason 5 is a great reason. That poor woman who lives with me has to look at me every day. 🙂
I wore a beard both times I served as bishop. The first time (in Latin America), it didn’t occur to me to ask if that was ok, but no one ever said anything to me, not even the area authority 70 who was in our stake and knew me well.
The second, I asked my stake president when he issued the call and he said it was up to me. There was another bishop in the stake at the time who also had a beard.
I’ve heard aprocryphal stories about visiting authorities who questioned the number of beards in our stake, but my SP never said a word. As it happens, I shaved my beard midway through my term (my choice, not directed by anyone).
Several years after my release I grew my beard again. When I was asked to serve in the temple in Taiwan, I shaved it upon request.
A young missionary I knew from my home ward thought it was odd that I was asked to shave to serve in the temple and he said he thought it was wrong to ask me. I responded that I would have happily shaved my head to serve in the temple.
Today I don’t have a calling that requires me to be clean shaven, so I’m not.
I agree that obedience is the key. (And really, humility is the key, and that leads to obedience.)