“You treat me like I’m a five-year-old.”
Those were the last words I heard before I fell asleep last night. Just another day in the perpetual curfew wars. A war where I covet a white flag of surrender. Are we alone in this battle? The way that it has been explained to me, I am the only parent in the western hemisphere who still clings to the antiquated idea of a “curfew”. With the exception of those kids who belong to families that live in compounds with their cousins, and don’t have flat panel TVs. You know, like the Amish.
Right now I have 3 sons living at home over the age of 14. One high schooler, one post-high school/pre-mission, one post mission/pre-independent. They are all good young men, mostly obedient, and very social. The problem is, they all have their own opinions as to how late they should be able to stay out at night – so “one size” definitely does not “fit all.”
When the FOMLs come home, they check in to let us know. This week, due to HP7.2, those check-ins have come at 11:00pm, 11:30pm, Midnight, 1:30am, 2:40am, etc. I plan on being tired all summer.
I know it sounds selfish, but I like to get a few consecutive hours of sleep when I go to bed, and I have lost the precious ability to sleep in.
My EC and I talk to my boys about this, and we just can’t seem to find a consensus. Here are some of the statements that invariably come up from the FOMLs:
1) You don’t need to wait up – just go to bed.
2) When I was on my mission I didn’t have to check in. (OK, my RM is way too good to say this. It is possible that I said it to my parents. Often.)
3) If I were away at school, you would have no idea what time I came in.
4) You treat me like a five-year-old.
5) I’m the only kid I hang around with that has a curfew.
6) You don’t trust me. (This is supposed to be the “nuclear option”)
When I hear these things being said, I say to myself “that is a bunch of crap.” But when confronted with the boys face-to-face, I usually respond with something wise like “that is a bunch of crap.” (My wife keeps reminding me that everything I think does not have to be spoken)
Sometimes the dialogue improves from there, sometimes not. Our position, when articulated, is this:
1) When you are living in our home, we feel that we are entitled to know when you come home.
2) When you were on a mission you followed much stricter rules, and were always home early.
3) If you attend a church school you do have curfews. Midnight everyday except Friday, 1:30am.
4) Only a five-year-old would complain that they are being treated like a five-year-old.
5) Bologna.
6) Arrgh! We do trust you, but we trust you a lot more before curfew than after..
That is the dilemma. Kids throw out these ridiculous generalities, and we respond poorly. And I’m still tired.
We used to joke that the Holy Ghost went to bed at midnight. Personally, I don’t think that is true – I think he just gets really tired of whispering to people who aren’t listening, and, rather than be ignored, he just want to relax with a pint of ice cream. (Maybe I’m personalizing this too much…)
About the whole trust thing: You can trust someone and still not want them to put themselves in a dangerous situation. For heaven’s sake, the bishop needs a chaperone to do interviews!
Last October in General Conference, Elder Larry Lawrence said “I have always believed that nothing really good happens late at night, and that young people need to know what time they are expected to come home…There is a great deal of wisdom displayed when parents stay up and wait for their children to return home. Young men and women make far better choices when they know their parents are waiting up to hear about their evening and to kiss them good night.” (Full address here.)
My interpretation of Elder Lawrence’s talk is that I will be tired for another 15 years.
If nothing else, the FOMLs should be grateful that I have never done what Bonnie Parkin (Former Church RS President) used to do: “We had curfew and told our sons that the Holy Ghost goes to bed at midnight. When they didn’t come home, a few times the Holy Ghost told me to go out and find them. That surprised a few of their dates!” (Full adress here.)
Um. Yikes?
—
So, I have no real solutions, but here is our current summertime stand:
High school Freshman: 11:00pm. Tuesday-Sunday. (Monday nights are FHE – everyone stays in -subject of a whole ‘nother post, and much drama)
Post-High Schooler and Post-Mission: Midnight Tuesday-Sunday, Except Friday-1:30am. (BYU curfew)
Additional points to consider:
My house – my rules
My car – my rules
Yes, there can be exceptions
No, it doesn’t matter what I did when I was your age
I’m sure some of you are reading this and thinking:
1) He’s a TYRANT!
2) He is way too easy.
3) There is a curfew at BYU? I wonder if I ever went to bed before 3:00am.
4) The new Harry Potter is out? How did I miss that?
5) I believe in having a curfew for my kids, specifically because I didn’t have one.
Chime in! I would love your opinions on this matter. Meanwhile, I’m gonna go take a nap.
Discover more from Thus We See...
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
I wish I had seen this post earlier this year. I agree with you on the importance of curfews. I must say, my husband was SUPER-conservative in the curfew he wanted. (Like 9:30 in the summer for my graduated 17 year old.) He did agree to me doing a poll on facebook to ask opinions. I admire him for reading the input and agreeing to a later curfew for our boy. We agreed on times more in line with yours.
Now if our 14 y/o nightowl would go to sleep once she’s home!
MMM I’m pretty sure we would be friends if we lived in the same neighborhood. I like how you think!
I’m chiming in late on this one- for contextual purposes, I am a single 25 year old, no kids, not living at home. I can still remember my feelings on curfew in my late teens/early 20’s. I bucked against rules like that pretty hard, and have tried to look back with the wisdom of my “old age” and develop some ideas about what I might do differently with my kids.
I like to think that I will have my kids let me know what they will be doing, and when they will be home, and have them say goodnight to me when they get home. Here are my reasons for doing that versus a curfew.
1. When I had a curfew, and it was say, 11:00 pm, if I had gone to an activity that wrapped up at 10, I would still wait until my curfew to come home. They say that idle hands are the devil’s workshop, and I think that is more true than the Holy Ghost going to sleep at midnight. I would always find ways to kill that extra time, and sometimes got into mischief.
2. When I thought my curfew was too early (I think it was 9 pm for a little while there), I decided to sneak out of the house instead of fighting that battle. While my parents thought I was sleeping, I was out doing whatever I had wanted to do originally, but 2 hours later and without them knowing anything about it.
I was a smart and well-behaved kid who got good grades and was involved at church, and hated feeling like my parents didn’t trust me. That feeling of a lack of trust, made me avoid telling them about my life. All they seemed to see were the mistakes I could make, so every conversation felt like a lecture, and not telling your parents anything is a recipe for disaster.
This April in general conference, Elder Cook said that “Our great desire is to raise our children in truth and righteousness. One principle that will help us accomplish this is to avoid being overly judgmental about conduct that is foolish or unwise but not sinful.” (http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/in-tune-with-the-music-of-faith?lang=eng)
I believe that sometimes parents get so concerned about protecting their children from dangerous situations that they start to rob them of learning experiences, and the opportunities to start making sound judgments earlier.
When I left for college, there was so much of a stark contrast in freedom, that I would stay out till 3 in the morning almost every night (this was at BYU) just because I could.
As my parents started to loosen up and trust me more (during the times I was home), I stopped having the “I need to get free!” mentality, and staying out late lost a lot of its savor. Once my parents acted like they trusted me and simply expected that I communicate with them, I was much better at letting them know where I was, and talking with them afterwards about what I did.
Because they respected me, I respected them in return and didn’t want them to worry. I would come home earlier, as well as avoid activities that I knew would cause them to worry more.
I am now coming up on a year of being my ward’s Relief Society President and as well as a temple worker, and love to talk with my parents about what’s going on in my life. I know that they trust that I am doing good things, and can make good decisions, and I no longer feel like they are always assuming that I will make a mistake.
I still stay out till 3 am on occasion… but more often than not, I am nestled in my bed by 11 pm.
Just found your blog, so I’m commenting on a really old post.
I had a curfew any time I lived with my parents. (High school, summer time during college, right before my mission) I had a dear friend who never had a curfew. I thought it was unfair, until she told me that she was jealous that my parents cared enough about me to want me to be home. My husband and I have talked about it and when our kids are teens, they will have curfews, because we want them to know that we care. I say, Yes to curfews!
Ok, curfew. I never have had a set curfew for my kids (six of them currently ages 23-5). They were given a report time based on where they were going, what they were doing, who they were with, and what else was going on in our family. That said, I agree that nothing good happens after midnight, especially where the opposite sex is involved. So, I say to you, good job, stand your ground, and nap when you can!
I completely agree with you. I think a curfew is a good idea since I never had one. Another topic I’d like to see you address some day is sleepovers.
Here’s something to try:
1) Buy an alarm clock (or in your case, 3 of them, one for each son.)
2) Put the alarm clock in the hallway outside your bedroom.
3) set the alarm clock to the son’s curfew time and turn the alarm on.
4) go to bed.
5) when son gets home, he turns off the alarm clock. If he gets home before his curfew, the alarm doesn’t wake you up. If he doesn’t get home before curfew, then the alarm goes off and wakes you up.
This way you are enforcing curfew but you also get to sleep.
By the way, my daughter just graduated from high school and turned 18. She’ll be going to a local college in the fall, and she’ll live on campus. This summer our arrangement has been: she tells us where she’s going and what time she’ll get home. She texts us a couple of times during the evening and before she gets in her car, for safety reasons. So far we haven’t seen the need to give her a curfew. Works for us.
-Jenny in NC
Personally I would much prefer a gentle knock on my door than a blaring alarm clock! haha!
Aargghh!!! I feel your sleepless pain. I thought once they got through the baby years my restored sleep was permanent. But with teens up late and then during school up for early morning Seminary, the restful sleep that’s good for the health is long gone again!!
Yes to curfews! Mine say the exact things yours do and I did to my parents. It’s straight out of the “typical teen” handbook. They are normal.
Yes it is your house your rules. Soon enough they will have their house their rules. And they can journal all their complaints and implement their ideas as they wish.
The one thing we have done is divide and conquer. My hubby takes the night shift (waits up til they are in) and I am the early morning shift (drive to Seminary and school or see them out the door). It works for us.
My feelings on the matter: My house, my rules. If God has set certain standards for his children to be able to be in His home (the temple), then shouldn’t I be able to do the same? One of those standards in my home is being home at an agreed upon time.
I have raised my boys with the understanding that as a parent, I have three primary responsibilities:
(1) To teach them to love the Lord;
(2) To teach them to be responsible and contributing members of society;
(3) To keep them safe until they have learned #1 and #2 (or turn 18 and move out on their own).
In our house curfews falls under #2 and #3. Now that my oldest boy is getting into high school years, we have reasoned together and come up with a time that gives him a bit more freedom and Mom a bit more peace of mind. In doing so, we have avoided many arguments as he knows my (hopefully) well-reasoned thoughts about the matter and he has also had a chance to voice his opinion.
Pre mission, I had the BIGGEST problem with curfew. After, I had none. Interesting that your post mission son still has a problem with it. My parents told me, if you don’t like it, just move out. Which I did six months after I got home. I got married. Never stayed out another night in my life.
You are not alone. We most definitely WILL be having a curfew in our house. I am blown away when parents don’t have one.
I’m a little leery of the “My house, my rules” decree because it sounds a little far from persuasion, long-suffering, etc. I’m not even happy with how easily I’ve slipped into “Because I said so!” as a response to my toddler’s “Why?” for the same reason.
In any case, I know that you’re caricaturizing the interactions a bit, and I’m not even sure I have a good alternative.
By the way, no kid understand why mom and dad wait up until they are a mom or dad themselves.
Your boys would love your rules better if they knew that our curfew (which applies to the 16 year old) is 10PM for summer and 9PM during school, even when he is with his mom (I am the stepmom), he needs to be home by that time and he gets a talk from his dad (ex-military man) when he is two minutes late.
I don’t remember what time our curfew was when I was a teenager, but I know I had one. After we graduated from high school we no longer had a curfew. My mother just asked that we let her know when we would leave and be out late and let her know if we had an idea of when we’d be home. It was more of a I’ll trust you if you respect me.
I honestly am not sure what I’ll do when my kids get older. I know I’ll have a curfew until they are out of high school, similar to yours probably. But I think the no curfew after 18 is something that I’ll tackle when my kids are nearing that age and whether I feel okay about it or not.
Yes to curfews: your house, your rules.
Our worst period was when we had older teens / early college kids and babies all in the same house (what were we thinking???) Nobody ever slept…
Our kids have always had to find us to say goodnight, even if we weren’t up (and sometimes we weren’t; shoot me). Those late night conversations with us were some of the very best we ever had with some of our kids, particularly some of the most “troublesome”.
Our kids also found when they didn’t want to live by our curfews anymore, they quit coming home summers — they either stayed at school or got other jobs, and that was fine by us; they’re supposed to grow up, after all.
My folks had a different approach when I was in HS. In Pennsylvania, where I grew up, my junior license (pre-18) was invalid between midnight and 5 am. If I was out past midnight and driving, I was doing so without a license. My dad had to point that out to me only once.
I had a friend whose response was always the same when one of his kids complained that so-and-so’s parents didn’t have a particular rule. He always said, “Really? Give me their phone number. I want to ask them why.” He never got a phone number. Go figure.
Definitely not the only parent in the western hemisphere who still believes in curfews. My house – my rules definitely in force around here.
As a dear friends of mine often says, I will do what I think is right for my kids — they can always work it out in therapy later.
You are spot on M-aMM!! And I’m bookmarking this page so that when my kids throw out the “everybody else…” I can show them that no, there are three other boys who are living the same miserable existence 😉
Clarification: These are summer hours. It tightens up during the school year. More like 10:00pm on a school night for the Freshman.
My 14 year old has way more freedom than I had, and his curfew is 10 pm on weeknights. So tell that to your freshman! He gets an extra hour, spoiled kid! 🙂 (helps mine is on swim team and swims at 6:30 am) I bristled at my parents curfew when I was home for the summer, all 3 times I actually went anywhere. I guess the Lord protected me by giving me no social opportunities at home… 🙂 You do have to have your sleep. Tell your boys sorry, they should have asked Heavenly Father for parents who need less sleep but it’s too late now, so… I think I’m going to have to say to mine that it’s ok if they don’t like the rules, but arguing won’t change them and having a fit gets you something unpleasant (chores, less freedom) because they need to find a way to deal with their anger in a way that doesn’t chase away the Spirit for everyone else. That’s what my mom taught me. I dread the next lots of years. sigh.
I think your rules sound great- though I don’t think my parents would have et me stay out until 11:00 on a school night as a freshmen. Weekend- definitely- weekdays, no way.
Comment from Del Talley (his comments won’t post for some reason, but when Del speaks, I listen)
“We have always had curfew for our children – even for college students returning home. While I agree the Holy Ghost doesn’t really go to bed at midnight, the true principle is that late hours will invariably wear down our defences and Satan is very aware of this fact. Like you, I have had many interviews with youth who have chosen to disregard sound counsel and found themselves without the help and guidance of the Holy Ghost. “I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say, but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
I am grateful for parents who not only gave me a curfew, but also expected me to come home and give a report after every date and activity. My father would actually interview me on my return and learn for himself if I had done anything that would made me unworthy of the companionship of the Holy Ghost and saved me from much heartache. I know that my parents loved me and wanted me to be happy. My children frequently hear these words: “If we didn’t care about you, we would let you do whatever you wanted to do. But because we love you so much, we give you rules and expect you to give an accounting of how well you abide by those rules.” Our children know we love them enough to bless them with rules, just as our Heavenly Father has done for us.”
I giggled through the entire post. You’re funny, Mormon Man.
I can’t believe your post-mish thought he could use his mission curfew as ammunition! Sheesh. Kids! 🙂
I like the whole “it doesn’t matter what I did when I was your age…”. I was sneaking out my bedroom window at 14. I’d KILL ’em if they thought they could pull that crap.
Your house, your rules. And you need to sleep. You do what you need to do! I’m more with Amy on this one-I am a total night owl, and didn’t really get into trouble growing up. I would basically tell my parents when I was coming home, and they would agree. I would let them know if plans changed, but I was generally home by 2 am. Of course, this rule was different if I had a steady boyfriend at the time, in which case I had to be home by 7 pm 🙂 if it makes your home a happier place/safer for your boys to give them a set curfew, you should do it! Of course, I am preaching to the choir, but you know it is your job to raise them and be their father, not to be their buddy. Give them a curfew, and every time they complain, make it 20 minutes earlier. The complaining should stop soon! PS-sometimes being a parent is no fun, but you are a great one. PPS-i have no personal parenting experience on this one, I just want mine to stop pooping their pants and sleep through the night!
bravo to you, I hope to learn from examples such as yours.
if I’d had to kiss my mama good night when i got home most of my activities would have been a whole lot different! i absolutely plan on doing everything I can to protect my children from experiencing some of the things I did. I know they have their agency, but as the parent there are just certain safeguards you can (and should) help with 🙂
Oh man! I have so much to look forward to. I hope you’re still posting in 7 + years when my kids are curfew age! They’re 7 and 9, we live in the sticks, and I have a hard time letting them ride their bikes to their cousins house 3 hayfields down.
Chris: If a Bishop meets with a sister, he is supposed to have a clerk or secretary in the hall outside, nor should he go into a home where only a sister is present. (Avoiding temptation and appearance of evil, I suppose)
I also feel that there are times for flexibility with curfews, and – for me – one of the biggest factors in deciding is how much trust has been previously established by how well the rules are normally honored. I learned at an early age that I really wanted to be trusted, because it gave me tremendous amounts of freedom.
Since when do bishops need chaperones for interviews?
Otherwise, I think your rules are fine. Since when does any kid love a curfew? It’s tough in the summer, but during the school year curfew was pretty easy. I had 6 AM seminary which was a non-negotiable affair. Accordingly, I was generally asleep by 10 of my own volition because I was going to be up before 6 regardless and I wanted my sleep.
However, my parents respected my staying-out-of-trouble-ness quite a bit. Curfew was curfew but it was somewhat negotiable. If I had the courtesy to call before curfew and say, “Mom, it’s 10:30 and we’re about to put in a movie. It’s a two-hour movie so I’ll probably be a little late. Is that okay?” she generally was willing to comply. This was especially the true because she knew my friends and I generally didn’t give her any reason to be too worried.
I mean, based on your practice of making exceptions to the rule it doesn’t sound like they have too much to complain about. They’re old enough to be bucking your rules but they’re also old enough to realize that there’s a fundamental difference between bending those rules for innocuous, trustworthy situations and times when the hammer needs dropping.
I asked my (non member) husband about this one. He says the 20 yrs olds shouldn’t have a curfew at all. But it also depends on the kid. I also have a strong feeling that he would want a tighter curfew law on our daughters and more leniant on our sons. I on the other hand agree with your curfew rules and your rule of your house, your rules. I think more bad stuff happens at night. But am also aware that the times of days of younger teens are getting in trouble between 3-6 pm when there is no supersvision after school and before parents come home. (But that is a whole other post) I hope by the time my kids are that age the hub and I will be more on an agreeable base. I’m sure there are daughters parents out there who appreciate your sons curfews as well.
Just a note of clarification: Any is right. There is no “curfew” at BYU, and the way she described it is correct. Please don’t tell anyone else!
Also, a note to Amy: Your statement that “people’s inhibitions are lowered” at night is very true, and years of hearing people’s confessions back that up. I’m glad you had the self-control that many don’t have. I believe that the late hours promote tiredness and beat down resistance, leaving people to do things in the wee hours that they would never do doing the day.
This is two years late to the party, but there * is* a curfew at BYU-Idaho. Midnight except for Friday- 1:00. Interestingly this only applies to single students, not married students 🙂
My husband and I attended BYU-Idaho and the rules they have there are much stricter than at BYU. It was interesting because a lot of students passionately spoke out against the Honor Code, even though they chose to attend the school of the own free will and choice, and they had to read, discuss, and sign that they would follow the Honor Code in the presence of their bishop before they could attend the school. Hypocrisy much? What’s interesting to note is that there have been several very specific prophecies regarding the role of BYU-I graduates in the world. The same cannot be said for BYU graduates. Anyway, I am whole-heartedly in agreement with curfews.
I totally believe in curfews. My parents waited up for us and though I never would have told them that, I thought that showed a lot of love. They explained to me that I could show them a lot of love by being home early or at least on time so that they could work/function the next day, and that made perfect sense. What I didn’t like was when I was only a few minutes late and I heard all about it. At least I came back safely.
Not to be a stickler, but there actually isn’t a curfew at BYU. There is a “time by which you need to be out of the apartments of members of the opposite sex” but nothing that says that you can’t continue the conversation somewhere else, or stay out till all hours of the night with anyone you please. Thank goodness.
With due respect to every leader who has ever wanted to protect me, I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that nothing worthwhile happens late at night. I think every serious conversation I’ve had with many friends has happened late at night. People are more honest at night, more willing to open up. People’s inhibitions are lowered. Sure, it may be a bad thing if you fail to exercise self-control, but it can also be a very, very good thing.
Along the same lines, it always chafed when people would repeat the folk doctrine, “The Spirit goes to bed at midnight.” It didn’t sit right with me. The idea of being confirmed and living worthily is that we have the right to the *constant* companionship of the Holy Ghost, before midnight as well as after. I would prefer to teach kids self-control and smart behavior, and then let them police themselves.
Then again, maybe I was just an especially smart and in-control young person.
I think you are spot on in every way, even the I’m tired part! I’m not having to worry about curfews right now but I’m freaking tired!!
We totally had to check in on my mission! What the??
I so wanna see HP 7.2. But I promise I will make curfew!
Well.. at 23 years old and married, I am finally looking back on what my father said “nothing good ever happens after midnight”.. and thinking “wow.. my dad is smart..” I think you are being more than fair with the curfews you’ve given. When I was a high school freshman mine was something like 10pm on weeknights and midnight on weekends or something to the equivalent, but never later than midnight. And yes, any time I was home (even in college, when I came home for holidays), it was understood that I would let my parents know where I would be, what time I’d be home, and come let them know when I did get back. I think you might have better luck explaining to them that it’s nerve-wracking when you’re waiting up for your beloved children to come home, and can’t really get a good night’s sleep unless you know they’re ok (this, obviously, was more easily done when they WERE 5, as they were in bed by, probably 8pm every night, and you knew exactly where they were…)